Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[Subitai]

thing is, if youre doing chi sao and someone starts breaking out of the boundaries of the drill and sparring or fighting you should be able to sense that just like you're supposed to sense everything going on in chi sao, (that's what its for after all) and just adapt with them and if they want to bang you have to match their violence and intent and may have to put them down hard. or they'll smash you. i think chi sao is a great drill in its context but you can see how hard it is to get people on the same page of "what it is", so should account for someone "not doing chi sao" by your own systems drills or definition and be able to adapt in real time and turn the volume up or down depending on the flow. if you insist on a drill when someone's punching you in the mouth then you need to step it up or step back and reassess what youre doing.

+ 1 for what Mutant said

[chaotic2k]

Wow! I haven't been here in awhile and when I come back this is the first thread I read! Here's my thoughts, if anyone cares. First, I can believe that Kevin was set up. But it seemed obvious to me and should have been obvious to Kevin within about 5 seconds that Obasi wasn't interested in a calm cooperative roll. Second, I have to agree that I didn't see any of the things that Kevin has so strongly and frequently asserted here in this forum about how superior PBVT is to everyone else's Wing Chun. I have to agree that if I didn't know who he was in this clip I would easily believe he was from the Moy Yat, Ip Chun, Ip Ching etc. lineage. I saw nothing of the superior angling and directness espoused by Kevin here in this forum. I believe that Kevin was likely unaware of what he was in for and was surprised by Obasi's response, but I would think he would have gotten over that surprise in about 5 seconds! I have to say I was more than a little disappointed. Now rather than clam up and never do another video again, I'd like to see Kevin put out more videos. Better videos to prove this one was a fluke.

Disagree with some of your points. I can see PBWSLVT in Kevin. Obasi looks very strong and i feel other Wing Chun guys i.e Yip Chun etc... Would not keep there structure since they dont understand there boxing forms to the level of WSL method. You can so that Kevin trains his Jon To Ma since he is getting thrown about as a unit.

This is the WSL way. You fight as a unit. Problem is there is not enough spring in the structure and this is why WSL guys get thrown around by really strong guys. Its reallt a universal issue with the WC structure but especially the WSL since they are best at applying it correctly.

[Paddington]

Problem is there is not enough spring in the structure [...]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

[chaotic2k]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

You need to open your hips and not lock them. Instead of being a stick you need to be a spring. Knees should bend freely. Weight distribution always changing and not stuck on heels. Need to always find equalibrian. Your centre is always changing with pressure. Stop being a see saw and become pac man.

You should be able to squat all the way down to floor at any time showing you have abilty to absorb pressure.

I train a more wrestling type chi sau and alot of my moves are controls rarther than strikes. I come from WSL family but do my own thing now.

[chaotic2k]

What do you think is the best way to train for 'spring in structure'?

Open hips
spring not stick (stance wise)
Knees bend freely
weight changes (not always heels)
Changing equalibrian
Chi sau attacks balance over just striking
not being a See Saw but Pac Man when dealing wit pressure
Do alot of push and pull drills
change wc tools to function differently
more free sparring
good wrestling training
the list goes on

[BPWT.]

I can see PBWSLVT in Kevin. Obasi looks very strong and i feel other Wing Chun guys i.e Yip Chun etc... Would not keep there structure since they dont understand there boxing forms to the level of WSL method. You can so that Kevin trains his Jon To Ma since he is getting thrown about as a unit.

Yes, I'd agree that Kevin keeps structure to the point where he is moving as a unit. And because Obasi is a big guy who is strong and heavy, that can't be an easy thing to do.

But... ... Kevin talks about PBVT and (in addition to saying how other Wing Chunners are "confused", training with a "misinterpretation" and "misunderstanding of the system", etc) he says that PBVT is about:

"Displacing contact so we can hit" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Lead and rear cycling" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Not maintaining contact" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"Not chasing hands" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"'lin sil di da" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Using Bong Sau to clear a path if an arm comes over the arm" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Angling to strike" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"LLHS, LSJC - Delivered like lightning from a mountain" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi

In the clips we've seen of PB, and some recent clips from people like Michael Kurth, we see drills that are clearly focusing on instilling the above points (among other points, too). In this clip with Kevin and Obasi, I don't see any of the above ideas in what Kevin was doing.

Again, full credit to Kevin for having the balls to meet with Obasi after they'd argued online, and to be willing to test with control (neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

[chaotic2k]

Yes, I'd agree that Kevin keeps structure to the point where he is moving as a unit. And because Obasi is a big guy who is strong and heavy, that can't be an easy thing to do.

But... ... Kevin talks about PBVT and (in addition to saying how other Wing Chunners are "confused", training with a "misinterpretation" and "misunderstanding of the system", etc) he says that PBVT is about:

"Displacing contact so we can hit" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Lead and rear cycling" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Not maintaining contact" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"Not chasing hands" - at times he was doing this with Obasi
"'lin sil di da" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Using Bong Sau to clear a path if an arm comes over the arm" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"Angling to strike" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi
"LLHS, LSJC - Delivered like lightning from a mountain" - Didn't see this in his Gor Sau with Obasi

In the clips we've seen of PB, and some recent clips from people like Michael Kurth, we see drills that are clearly focusing on instilling the above points (among other points, too). In this clip with Kevin and Obasi, I don't see any of the above ideas in what Kevin was doing.

Again, full credit to Kevin for having the balls to meet with Obasi after they'd argued online, and to be willing to test with control (neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

Thing is all wing chun guys suffer same fate. Most CMA look great on paper but in reality fail. Kevins stance and shapes are pure WSL stuff. Obassi just letting it go. Very difficult to deal with or apply fixed drill responses under that pressure.

For me Wing Chun is just an element of a fight. Like a good spag bowl needs an onion. Some of my students ask me "why are you not using Wing Chun". Reason is there is a time and a place. Wing chun is just a part of the pie.

[LFJ]

(neither guy was looking to kill the other, no hard blows were landed to the face, etc). But as I see it, when faced with a large, strong guy - even within a particular and controlled environment (Chi Sau/Gor Sau) - Kevin's PBVT didn't live up to the forum hype.

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself.

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

[BPWT.]

Obassi just letting it go. Very difficult to deal with or apply fixed drill responses under that pressure.

Indeed. But, IMO, the point of drills is not to be able to apply them 'as is' with a set response (though that would be nice ), but to apply what the drill teaches - positioning, concept, etc. And of course that should be about transferring those ideas to a more 'live' environment. So Gor Sau is a good place to develop this, as it has some constraints/positional rules (starting from Poon Sau) but it also allows some free-flowing play and spontaneity.

Kevin's stance and shapes might very well be a good example of WSL lineage VT stance and shapes, but for me at least, everything else that Kevin talks about here on this forum seemed to go out the window.

Thing is all wing chun guys suffer same fate.

Well, we know for sure that Wing Chun works against Wing Chun, that Wing Tsun works against Wing Tsun, and that PBVT works against PBVT.

[chaotic2k]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself.

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

What would them fighting prove? Obasi is clearly the better fighter but this is due to alot of other factors not juat wing chun. Kevin is a Wing chun Vet with alot of experience and is from the old school. One is maybe a bettwr teacher while the other is a better fighter?!?

Kevins an old boy as well. Give him a break. Obasi is having his time now. Making a name. Its all gravey!

[chaotic2k]

Indeed. But, IMO, the point of drills is not to be able to apply them 'as is' with a set response (though that would be nice ), but to apply what the drill teaches - positioning, concept, etc. And of course that should be about transferring those ideas to a more 'live' environment. So Gor Sau is a good place to develop this, as it has some constraints/positional rules (starting from Poon Sau) but it also allows some free-flowing play and spontaneity.

Kevin's stance and shapes might very well be a good example of WSL lineage VT stance and shapes, but for me at least, everything else that Kevin talks about here on this forum seemed to go out the window.



Well, we know for sure that Wing Chun works against Wing Chun, that Wing Tsun works against Wing Tsun, and that PBVT works against PBVT.

Drills are good but most traditonal wing chun drills dont help but hinder. Positions, structure all outdated!!

[BPWT.]

While not trying to do real damage, Obasi was obviously emotional and trying to prove something. Kevin was pretty calm throughout and just trying to get into some sort of rolling platform with him as far as I could tell, but Obasi kept making it some sort of struggle, which is why it made it look like Kevin was chasing hands when he tried to set up properly. He was looking to get into chi-sau, not just fight. Obasi just wasn't cooperating. Eventually Kevin paused and said this isn't our chi-sau. Then Obasi's reaction was rather c0cky. I think he may have actually been proud of himself.

Sure, Kevin could have played Obasi's game then and stepped it up, but then it would have turned into a full brawl and someone would have gotten hurt. Obasi was emotional enough as it was. You can't change the mind of a stubborn person like that without actually knocking them out. I think all this clip shows is that Obasi completely falls apart when his emotions get to him. (Did you see him throw his baby fit when the MMA recruiters told him he wasn't good enough? lol)

I think they should get together again and just spar. Maybe get into that cage in the background and go at each other.

For sure, Kevin stayed calm throughout, even though Obasi seemed kinda pumped up. So credit to Kev for keeping a cool head.

Regarding chasing hands, I wasn't really referring to Kevin (and Obasi) looking to re-engage in Poon Sau and establish a rolling platform to start from again. I was referring to what Kevin does when Obasi attacks. Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking. (so basically, he is doing the very opposite of what you see in all of the PB videos Kevin posts)

It happens. Gor Sau frees things up and things do become messier and less like a drill. However, I really don't see Kevin doing the things he says are the hallmarks of PBVT - the things that he claims are right in what he does, compared to the wrong that others do.

[chaotic2k]

For sure, Kevin stayed calm throughout, even though Obasi seemed kinda pumped up. So credit to Kev for keeping a cool head.

Regarding chasing hands, I wasn't really referring to Kevin (and Obasi) looking to re-engage in Poon Sau and establish a rolling platform to start from again. I was referring to what Kevin does when Obasi attacks. Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking. (so basically, he is doing the very opposite of what you see in all of the PB videos Kevin posts)

It happens. Gor Sau frees things up and things do become messier and less like a drill. However, I really don't see Kevin doing the things he says are the hallmarks of PBVT - the things that he claims are right in what he does, compared to the wrong that others do.

99.9% of all wing chun.... Proberbly including you..

[LFJ]

Kevin follows the attacking arm, sometimes sticking with it, but he never angles and cuts into the attack - he is almost exclusively defending rather than counter-attacking.

I think if he started doing that it would have set Obasi off even further which would not have been good. There were so many times where Kevin could have capitalized on Obasi's loss of balance and overextension, or he could have just punched him straight in the face as open as he left himself. But again, that's not what they were supposed to be doing and with Obasi's emotional state that would have turned it into a fight. I don't think Kevin wanted to go there, and it looks like to me that that is why all he did was defend. Of course the only response Kevin will give is a diplomatic one, but this is my suspicion.

[LFJ]

What would them fighting prove?

Not necessarily "fight", but free spar. That is the only way for two different lineages to compare themselves.

Obasi is clearly the better fighter

I don't know about that. Haven't seen Kevin fight, but Obasi doesn't impress me in the least.

Obasi is having his time now. Making a name.

A bad name. Posts a terribly lousy video of himself setting someone up in what he calls a "Chi Sao Challenge Match" where he almost falls on his face. He should use this clip for his next MMA tryout and see if they don't laugh him out of the building like the last time.