Exorcism

[Kellen Bassette]

Thanks for the interesting insider-view.

What I still take away from it is that there seems to be an ideological wish in Christianity to believe in demonic possession, even if it's considered to be rare. Among other things this may be expressed in accusations against practices like Yoga as being demonic. Perhaps this mostly comes from evangelical Protestant groups.

Something similar can perhaps be said of Buddhists, who may preferentially interpret unusual phenomena as signs of reincarnation.

How is it ideological to specifically Christianity? Virtually every ancient culture and religious tradition believed in demonic possession/spirit possession.

Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc?

From the point of view of main stream science, none of these things exist either, so what would be the point?

[rett2]

How is it ideological to specifically Christianity? Virtually every ancient culture and religious tradition believed in demonic possession/spirit possession.

Christianity engaged in aggressive proselytizing and missionary work, as a supremacist religion used to dominate other cultures and ultimately further the goals of colonialization. (unlike many folk religions and cultures that were assimilatory and could coexist with others). As part of that, Christianity declared other religions and practices to be the work of the devil, and its view on possession could fit into that ideology. I didn't claim that belief in possession is unique to Christianity, but rather was focusing on how it seems to be used in this particular ideological way. A latter day example could be when some churches declare yoga or meditation to be satanic.

I don't mean to reduce Christianity only to this aspect of it's practice, but this aspect does exist. Also, other religions in history have declared competitor faiths to be demonic.

From the point of view of main stream science, none of these things exist either, so what would be the point?

The point has to do with how, if you set science aside, people interpret "supernatural" experiences in accordance with preexisting beliefs. For example the great christian mystics had ecstatic visions that they interpreted as "seeing god" or meeting other figures from their religion. Another religion might say that had entered a powerful meditative state but that any visions they had are just expressions of their conditioning. I was wondering how the RCC went about making themselves sure that of all the possible "supernatural" explanations, it just had to be "demonic possession" (the one that fits their world-view best, for instance by recognizing the existence of demons that intervene in the world).

[Kellen Bassette]

Christianity engaged in aggressive proselytizing and missionary work, as a supremacist religion used to dominate other cultures and ultimately further the goals of colonialization.

I think that is an unfair assessment. Yes, proselytizing has always been part of the religion, but Christianity does not equal the Holy Roman Empire or other political factions that used Christianity as a tool of suppression or empire building. Obviously a lot of horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, and other religions, but Christ taught freewill and never advocated violence or using religion for political purposes. Jesus said to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." Paul wrote "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal." That is the original Christian way of proselytizing, preach the gospel to them that will hear you and move on from them that don't receive you. A lot of people used religion and force as a means to their own ends.

(unlike many folk religions and cultures that were assimilatory and could coexist with others).

Actually, a lot of folk religions and cultures were assimilated into Christianity. The Romans had a long history of incorporating gods and mythologies from conquered peoples into their own belief systems.

As part of that, Christianity declared other religions and practices to be the work of the devil, and its view on possession could fit into that ideology. I didn't claim that belief in possession is unique to Christianity, but rather was focusing on how it seems to be used in this particular ideological way. A latter day example could be when some churches declare yoga or meditation to be satanic.

A lot of religious people declare anything they don't understand to be evil, or "the devil." That is why I would rather form an opinion based on the scriptures of a religion then on the behavior of its followers. To answer your question, no doubt, at times, demonic possession has been used to explain the unfamiliar, or as an excuse to burn a witch at the stake. I personally feel that mentality is the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus.

I don't mean to reduce Christianity only to this aspect of it's practice, but this aspect does exist. Also, other religions in history have declared competitor faiths to be demonic.

The gods of one culture become the devils of another. It's a tradition as old as religion itself.

The point has to do with how, if you set science aside, people interpret "supernatural" experiences in accordance with preexisting beliefs. For example the great christian mystics had ecstatic visions that they interpreted as "seeing god" or meeting other figures from their religion. Another religion might say that had entered a powerful meditative state but that any visions they had are just expressions of their conditioning.

I actually think there is much more in common than most will admit among the major religions. The lens of culture and the different terminologies and descriptions of ideas makes people denounce the same ideas they promote, when they hear them explained in a foreign way.

I was wondering how the RCC went about making themselves sure that of all the possible "supernatural" explanations, it just had to be "demonic possession" (the one that fits their world-view best, for instance by recognizing the existence of demons that intervene in the world).

I'll have to leave that to SJ or others, I have no idea how the RCC inner circle establishes their criteria...it is a very interesting subject though.

[bawang]

Obviously a lot of horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity

in the bible the jews are the supreme race of people who are superior over all others and are destined to rule the world from mount zion. countries that attack them are prophesized to be punished. germany killed 6 million jews far surpassing all the countries in the bible. 90% of jewish population in europe is gone.

the act of trying to wipe out jews, replacing image of jews with europeans as gods chosen people, splintering of rome into modern successor kingdoms all correlate strongly with antichrist and the beast.

doing horrible things in the name of god is the ultimate unforgivable act of blasphemy against the holy spirit which cannot be forgiven through intermediary by christ as explained in revelations.

if you are european it is in your best interest for god to not be real.

[Kellen Bassette]

in the bible the jews are the supreme race of people who are superior over all others and are destined to rule the world

This belief was/is prevalent over a great many cultures. It is hardly unique to the Jews.

if you are european it is in your best interest for god to not be real.

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

[bawang]

This belief was/is prevalent over a great many cultures. It is hardly unique to the Jews.

yeah but if you believe in jewish religion and read their book then you have to believe they are superior. you cant pick and choose

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

why would jew god give euros a free pass for killing and oppressing jews for 2000 years?

[Kellen Bassette]

yeah but if you believe in jewish religion and read their book then you have to believe they are superior. you cant pick and choose

In spite of their common ancestry, and shared scriptures, Judaism and Christianity are theologically incompatible.

why would jew god give euros a free pass for killing and oppressing jews for 2000 years?

I don't speak for Jew God. I just quoted him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah but if you believe in jewish religion and read their book then you have to believe they are superior. you cant pick and choose

Not superior, chosen.
When YHWH divided the nations, He kept what WOULD be Israel for Himself.
Israel was yet to be, Abraham was yet to be picked and NEVER forget that ALL nations would be blessed though him and his descendents.
Israel was to be a nation of priest, the only one to worship the True God, the Creator AND sustainer of everything and through Israel, all the nations would be brought back into the "fold".
The nations were disinherited by YHWH because they chose to worship other gods, so God does what He always does: He allows people to choose freely.
We have a choice, we can say to God "Thy will be done" or God can say to US "thy will be done".