Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

hi sal,



i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucerei...11/n1fpOAkhIEo

below are the names i was given when i learned the form.

Linkage of the 5 Roads
U hsing Lein Huan Chien


Green dragon comes Out of the water
Yuing Lung Chu Sue’



1 Getting Ready Position
Yi Pei se


2 Forward Right Crushing Hand
Tjin pu yu pen chien


3 Retreat left Crushing Hand
Tue’ pu chuo pen chien




Black Tiger Comes Out of the Cave
He Hu Chu Tung



4 Scoop forward, Right Crushing Hand
Sue’n Pu yu Pe’ng chien





White crane Spreads the Wings
Pai Ho Lian che’




5 Retreat, Embrace the Fist
Tue’ Pu pao Chien





Wildcat Climbs the Tree
Ye’ mao san su



6 Forward, Cannon Fist
Tjin Pu pao Chien



7 Retreat, Left Chop Hand
Tue’ Pu Chuo Pi Chang



8 Foot close together, right stopping fist
Ao Pu yu Chan Chien
Note: It also includes thee left stopping fist that preceded


9 Jump (or step forward) double chop hand
Tiao Pu Suang Pi Chien







Wildcat back up the tree
Ye’ mao tao snag su




10 Forward, Right Crushing Hand
Tjin (Chin) Pu yu peng chien



11 Turn the Body Position
Hue’ sen se



12 Closing Position
Sou Se

[brucereiter]

Ok ... I'll throw one out here. SD's walking the circle, in Pa Qua, is like walking through mud, stepping high off the ground and placing the foot back down while maintaining a 'hollow' in the foot. Most other schools do a sliding step as they walk the circle. I like doing both versions, depending on the speed I am doing the form in. Seen any other groups do this?

the gao bagua i am learning uses a heel/toe step almost like normal walking.

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[bodhi warrior]

Now you people are talking history and this is much more interesting.

Look, I apologize for being pompous and all, and I would like to call a truce.

I'd like to help you guys trace the SD forms and their origins. I have almost all this info in my archives. I started doing this for someone from SD way back in the 1980s.

For example, the Meteor Fist routine. I have archive info on that super rare routine. I know some of you were asking me last year if I had info on that set. I do have it.

If you want my help, I'm willing to do so.
We can put aside our differences in the name of research, yes?

Show me a routine and I will provide you with reference material that contains that routine that you can use to compare with what you do.
Perhaps it will help you to brush up on the exact movements and postures, in case over time they got mixed up or some bits got lost.
You can PM me that link if you don't want everyone else to see it.

Let me know, thanks.

Let me extend my hand in friendship.
While I disagree with some of your post, I do agree with some of them.
Like material coming from books and videos or other sources. I personally believe that most if not all of the material sin the' taught after 1990 was not learned during his time training at the chung yen school. I have no evidence this is just an opinion. Dragon pakua, 8 animal pakua, chen taichi, the 5 animal form, could have all been learned through books or videos.
But I do believe that the core material, the material that matches hiang's is material learned in indonesia. And I believe that hiang's complete list of material was learned in indonesia. Again this is my opinion.

[arinathos.valin]

Thanks, Sal... looking forward to learning from you...

I STILL have no idea where the SD 8 animal bagua form comes from...

[themeecer]

i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucerei...11/n1fpOAkhIEo

Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

[Leto]

The reason the same questions keep coming up is because they have never been answered satisfactorily. We have very general information about some of the other teachers from Bandung, but no specifics about the origins of most of the forms. If Ie Chang Ming traveled all over China collecting forms before he fled to Java, and didn't tell GM The anything more specific, we might never find out exactly where they came from. But I at least would like to find closely similar forms and styles to compare with and thereby improve my understanding of the different methods employed.
If there was no mention of history or lineage on the sites and in the schools at all, people would still question, maybe even moreso. At least, some people would. I understand that there are some people who don't care at all, they don't care if the material has a 1000 year old lineage or if Sin The made it all up himself, they just like to work out and fight. That's fine for them, but there are some of us who are interested in other aspects of the martial arts, and learning the history is a part of understanding the style. I've attended four or five of GM The's seminars, and he never gave specific history to anything. Maybe he only gives such information to students in Kentucky, since KC says he always tells the history? The notes we get are a list of the postures in chinese and rough english translations, I've never been handed anything regarding a form's history. The only stories I've heard him tell are about legendary figures like Wang Lang or the eight immortals, or about some unnamed great ancestors of his who had interactions with shaolin monks and had near supernatural powers. He never said anything like "I first learned this form when I was 15, one of GM Ie's friends taught it to me. It originally came from the Fukien province of China." What would be so hard about that? I regret now, never asking those types of questions when I was there. But I was always too nervous to start asking such questions, and there wasn't much opportunity to anyway.

I would love to have someone put the brown belt material and black tiger forms, on video, so people can see them and compare to other styles. When I have the space to do so, I would do it, though I might not give the best performance of it. It would be best to have someone with more experience do it, obviously. I have a hunch that the black tiger forms may have silat/cimande influence.

[kwaichang]

THanks Sal for your offer I too apologize to you. I also watched the Chen Man Ching Tai chi and I have to disagree with BaquaLin the angles are different at times the number of movements are different and the hand positions are different as well the kicks start with a different angle and foot unless I saw it wrong. As far as the history GM Th'e does not give where or whom or what age he was when he learned a form I do know when he was testing me one time he told the history of the 3 Tiger forms for Black level, Ching Kang Fu Hu Chien Etc So i guess he was just being Nice. KC

[Judge Pen]

I also watched the Chen Man Ching Tai chi and I have to disagree with BaquaLin the angles are different at times the number of movements are different and the hand positions are different as well the kicks start with a different angle and foot unless I saw it wrong.

KC, i think you're right and you're wrong. All of your observations are correct, but I think you're focusing too much on the details. The postures, their sequencing, and order are essentially the same. Yes sometimes the number of times a posture is different, but I think they are the same form performed differently.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, now that's what I am talking about. I agree 100%.

I have started doing that for some of the forms that I teach. Sometimes I prefer the way we do it, sometimes I like how other people do it. I try to retain both versions in my head. Some of my students who have trained previously at other SD schools do the same. Instead of letting them get discouraged when they have to relearn a form I simply point out that it gives them more variations and ways to think about the form. Sometimes the changes are simple like leaving out a temple block here or there, other times the changes are more drastic.

Ok ... I'll throw one out here. SD's walking the circle, in Pa Qua, is like walking through mud, stepping high off the ground and placing the foot back down while maintaining a 'hollow' in the foot. Most other schools do a sliding step as they walk the circle. I like doing both versions, depending on the speed I am doing the form in. Seen any other groups do this?

PS. I am sitting here in my Cobra Kai Johnny costume I just got done piecing together for Halloween and I am totally feeling like the king of the demo.

Well, the mud walking method comes from Beijing style Bagua Zhang (you have to say "zhang" - plams after Bagua because there are lots of different styles also named Bagua).
It comes from Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan masters getting together and learning from each other and comparing notes. Mud stepping is a Xingyi Quan influence. It's done so you can adjust with each step to maintain your center.

The original method of walking was the sliding step method.
Their body mechanics are very different from each other with different emphasis and strategy and have to be adjusted for, it's not just a matter of what you do with your toes, it's a matter of what you do with your dantian (your center of gravity) and how weight is shifted as you move.
The sliding method comes from the Shaolin Luohan roots that Bagua Zhang has.

Neither has to do with speed, you can do both at all speeds and with all three Basins (heigh, medium, and low) of height, each basin the forms are done very differently.

[kwaichang]

True JP but the fact that Cen Man Ching was one of the major promoters of Tai Chi would only add to the fact that most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor. It is the subtle differences that seperates it from the form posted. KC

[kwaichang]

In the Pa Kua that I was taught yhe rules state to brush the ankle and to sit like a Tiger or weight on the foundation foot? not sure how to say that, and the waist coiled like a Dragon. Or power from the waist or Dan Tien KC

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi sal,



i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucerei...11/n1fpOAkhIEo

below are the names i was given when i learned the form.

Linkage of the 5 Roads
U hsing Lein Huan Chien


Green dragon comes Out of the water
Yuing Lung Chu Sue’



1 Getting Ready Position
Yi Pei se


2 Forward Right Crushing Hand
Tjin pu yu pen chien


3 Retreat left Crushing Hand
Tue’ pu chuo pen chien




Black Tiger Comes Out of the Cave
He Hu Chu Tung



4 Scoop forward, Right Crushing Hand
Sue’n Pu yu Pe’ng chien





White crane Spreads the Wings
Pai Ho Lian che’




5 Retreat, Embrace the Fist
Tue’ Pu pao Chien





Wildcat Climbs the Tree
Ye’ mao san su



6 Forward, Cannon Fist
Tjin Pu pao Chien



7 Retreat, Left Chop Hand
Tue’ Pu Chuo Pi Chang



8 Foot close together, right stopping fist
Ao Pu yu Chan Chien
Note: It also includes thee left stopping fist that preceded


9 Jump (or step forward) double chop hand
Tiao Pu Suang Pi Chien







Wildcat back up the tree
Ye’ mao tao snag su




10 Forward, Right Crushing Hand
Tjin (Chin) Pu yu peng chien



11 Turn the Body Position
Hue’ sen se



12 Closing Position
Sou Se

No distinct lineage, that's the traditional wushu version of the Five Elements Linking form, that all lineages coming from Hebei Style Xinyi Quan do. That looks like the exact official government modern version that is taught in schools as a standard Hebei beginner form to start with.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In the Pa Kua that I was taught yhe rules state to brush the ankle and to sit like a Tiger or weight on the foundation foot? not sure how to say that, and the waist coiled like a Dragon. Or power from the waist or Dan Tien KC

that is correct in Cheng and Sun styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

KC, i think you're right and you're wrong. All of your observations are correct, but I think you're focusing too much on the details. The postures, their sequencing, and order are essentially the same. Yes sometimes the number of times a posture is different, but I think they are the same form performed differently.

But why would Ie (or whoever from back then) bother to go find the,at that time, brand new and untested and obscure Chen Manching set, when the Yang family 108 set was always readily available everywhere to learn from very good qualified masters.