Of course there was more to it than that. it was the first time he had fought for real trying to use wing chun. After seeing how ineffective it was, he started to re-examine his approach to everything.Originally Posted by Kevin73
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Of course there was more to it than that. it was the first time he had fought for real trying to use wing chun. After seeing how ineffective it was, he started to re-examine his approach to everything.
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ouch that hurt
I guess we are who we are
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As we have seen before and in other threads, people being fans of Bruce Lee make it hard to discuss things objectively... and if you do, you are labeled a "hater" in an attempt to distract from the actual subject
Most of what is said / told about Bruce Lee comes from close personal friends who of course loved him and of course hold dear the memory of their lost friend, but that means they are hardly objective...
It could of course also be argued that many had a financial stake in the Bruce Lee image. Linda Lee became a millionaire off of Bruce's image, doing a lot of things that were a little "off". Many of Bruce's notes were just that, notes, never intended to be published. many were just quotes of OTHERS. Linda Lee was sued successfully several times by the actual authors of many of the pieces she passed off as Bruce Lee's original ideas.
What do we know of Bruce Lee's fighting ability? He won a high school boxing tournament in Hong Kong... this would make him the equivalent of a "golden gloves" but anyone who has been in USA Boxing and done "golden gloves" knows that for example being a NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago champion is miles ahead of being champion in other cites and states... Hong Kong?
An often cited story involves a karate student and Bruce fighting on a handball court. We don't know much about MR Karate other than he was NOT an instructor, since not a single source has made this claim. Did he take one class a week at the YMCA? Perhaps he had just started Karate a few weeks prior? We just don't know?
What do we really know about this fight with WJM? WJM was not a "famous fighter" nor even an established teacher at this point. There WERE established teachers and, more to point, quite a few active TONG enforcers in town at the time... ie there seems no question there were people with better "credentials" to beat Bruce Lee?
We know, without any doubt, that Bruce Lee was not happy with his performance in the fight. He changed everything he did as a result.... changes like that are seldom the result of a victory, much less a brilliant victory....
We know that WJM was out in public the next day, with nothing more than a scratch.....
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Excellent post, and perfectly sums up the entire matter. And I say this as someone who has been a fan of BL since the '70s, and will remain so.
As a kid, I used to believe the accounts as given by the "BL camp". I mean, why not? It's what was in print. Then in my late teens, I began to see things from an objective POV. When you do that, the truths become more self-evident.
IMO, supporting exaggerated claims or (perhaps even) outright lies by some of those who were close to BL and had the most to gain from his legend, does not equal true respect for BL's actual accomplishments. Neither is being a fan and lacking the ability to be objective about it. What it is, is idol worship, plain and simple...treating someone as a demi-god who could do no wrong. If anything, it suggests DISrespect, a belief that BL's real achievements alone were not enough, and that he needed falsehoods to prop him up.
The opposite could be said regarding WJM having been portrayed as a cowardly villain for nearly 50 years. Regardless how the fight went and the reasons for it, it was one moment in time, that should not define the entire lifetime he's lived since then.
Last edited by Jimbo; 10-19-2013 at 08:36 AM.
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What I took from Linda Lee's account of the fight is that Bruce Lee won but the fight was sloppy. What he did is attempt to improve upon his fighting skills to be as efficient as possible. This is the mentality of a perfectionist. His actual account of the fight is very realistic. I can imagine a Wing Chun practitioner gassing in a three minute fight from over exerting himself and hitting his opponent in the back of the head and back with chain punches. He bruised his hands and he was winded which inspired him to improve his conditioning and overall approach to fighting. He was fanatical about this.
Wong's account on the other hand as I said before is less believable. A 20-25 minute fight between Traditional Martial Artists in a match with no rules and no protective gear is unlikely. Wong thinking his kicks were lethal is nonsense as is his claim that Bruce was trying to kill him so he fought defensively for 20-25 minutes. His account just wreaks of BS.
Also if Bruce Lee really lost the fight he was a complete idiot to claim that he won when there were witnesses there who could debunk his claim. Wong being upset that he talked about the fight and challenging him to a rematch sounds like a man who set out to redeem himself. Curiously there appears to be no evidence of the written challenge Michael Dorgan alleges Wong made for Bruce to fight him in a public rematch.
We don't know that. No pictures were taken. Every account of that fight is hearsay since it wasn't recorded and there are contradictory reports.We know that WJM was out in public the next day, with nothing more than a scratch.....
If I were Wong Jack Man I would at least try to get the word out regarding my account of the fight in order to clear up any slanders told by the Bruce Lee camp.
We live in the internet age. It would be very easy to hook up with an interviewer and tell his side of the story. If he really did teach non-Chinese surely he could provide evidence by getting some of his students from the time period to vouch for him. It would still be a case of "He said, She said" and diehard Bruce Lee fans are going to believe him no matter what but if you value your name at all before you pass away surely you would attempt to tell your story.
Maybe it isn't important to him any more I don't know but the story of the sinister Wong Jack Man who represented the Chinese Martial Arts community of San Francisco in their racist campaign to prevent Bruce Lee from teaching non-Chinese only to be defeated in dominant and humiliating fashion persists to this day. They mentioned it in the last documentary I saw titled "I am Bruce Lee."
We'll never see video of the actual fight but at the very least Wong Jack Man could present the world with video of himself telling his side to create a permanent record of his account.
Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 10-19-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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I will just state two things
1) WJM was a waiter in a very popular restaurant in Chinatown and a lot of people saw him the next day. He had no noticeable effects of a "fight"... my kids leave sparring nights with more damage every day of the week....
2) Anyone can say anything, it is meaningless out of context... context in Linda Lee's case is that many things she has said have been proven to be wrong... and she had motive to tell the story the way it was told,,,, motive and opportunity is what they say in law enforcement....
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There are usually two major points of view concerning Bruce, one, he was the be all, end all master of martial arts; and the other side, he was just a movie star and never proved himself.
I think the first group needs to look past their hero worship and see reality, the haters, OTH, miss a lot of the good points about Lee.
Bruce Lee is probably the single, biggest influence to bring CMA to the west. Even if by movies and celebrity, he deserves credit for sparking interest. Also, a lot of folks credit Lee as "The Father of MMA," (Dana White included.) (I personally don't agree with this, since to my way of thinking MMA has been around for thousands of years.) It should be noted, however, that Bruce was well ahead of his time when it came to cross training, practicality and plain open mindedness. There wasn't a lot of that around during that period in the martial arts.
I think it's important to note that Lee had only formally trained for a relatively short period of time; and the techniques he lifted from systems outside Wing Chun, were often taken by observation, not from being coached in all the nuances, theory and technique by a teacher of the art. Bruce was obviously very athletic and naturally gifted and probably could absorb material better than most. One must question how deep his knowledge was, but at least he was actively learning and growing.
I recognize that BL never fought any noteworthy opponents and his "fight record" would be meaningless by today's standards. I do think he was on the right path though. He saw the need for weight training, conditioning and cross training, long before it was popular. He wanted to hit bags and pads and spar full contact. He called out folks that didn't believe in these methods. He may have never evolved to the point of what we think of as the MMA fighter of today, but if he had been given the time, or came up in the '90's I believe he would have.
He probably would have fought, probably would have won some, lost some, probably would have kept learning, we can only speculate.
In a lot of ways, BL is still decades ahead of some of the TCMA community, at least in theory and practice, even if he never proved it.
You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!
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If you weren't there then how do you know?
Why should we believe Wong's account over her's? Or Bruce Lee's for that matter?2) Anyone can say anything, it is meaningless out of context... context in Linda Lee's case is that many things she has said have been proven to be wrong... and she had motive to tell the story the way it was told,,,, motive and opportunity is what they say in law enforcement....
What did Linda Lee say that was proven to be wrong?
I haven't seen any proof of anything regarding this fight. I just find Bruce's account to be more credible than the account attributed to Wong. Bare in mind I'm basing my assessment on Michael Dorgan's interview in Official Karate magazine which is on the internet. A second hand account. I haven't even read an interview by Wong Jack Man himself.
Have you?
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How do I know he worked there? Wow, that isn't in dispute... and TONS of people who are still alive and well were there the day after and never reported him "beat up"... Two people of VERY HIGH REPUTATION have said it was only one scratch, so you'd have to call them liars
The fact was that White people were already being taught kung fu at the time, by members of the group Lee and Linda claimed were trying to stop him from teaching...
WJM had tons of white students.....
The open challenge that Lee issued, that lead to the fight, is a proven fact... there are still copies of it around...
When WJM gave his interview in the Chinese press, and refuted Lee and offered a public rematch, Lee avoided the issue like the plague...
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Good point
It is easy to say anything about someone that is no longer alive , Bruce isn't here to speak for himself but Wong Jack Man is and if I were him I would have said my piece the very first time it came up. Whenever I read a false statement made about my Sfiu the late Gm Ark Y Wong I speak up then and their , and I don't care who it is I have to confront. My best to all
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I'm asking you how you know that Wong showed no signs of injury from the fight if you weren't at the restaurant. Which two people made the claim? What are their names? Where is the source for their statements?
Did he? Do you know any of these students or have you seen group photos verifying this statement? I'm not convinced that this aspect of Linda's story is true however I haven't seen evidence that disputes it either.The fact was that White people were already being taught kung fu at the time, by members of the group Lee and Linda claimed were trying to stop him from teaching...
WJM had tons of white students.....
Are there? Have you seen it? Can you post a picture of Bruce's open challenge?The open challenge that Lee issued, that lead to the fight, is a proven fact... there are still copies of it around...
Have you seen a copy of this interview?When WJM gave his interview in the Chinese press, and refuted Lee and offered a public rematch, Lee avoided the issue like the plague...
All of the statements you are giving me are claims that I heard in Michael Dorgan's article published in Official Karate magazine but I have not seen a shred of evidence backing any of his assertions. A poster on a blog claimed that he had tried to find a copy of Wong Jack Man's supposed challenge but could not find it anywhere suggesting that it never happened.
http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2...-myth-vs-fact/
Now I'm not saying that it didn't happen. But if it did where is the evidence?
I have searched the internet and have not found any direct statements from Wong Jack Man about this fight nor evidence for any of the claims confirming the account of the fight attributed to him.
I stand by the position that since the fight wasn't recorded we don't really know what happened. Only the people who were there know and they are giving conflicting accounts. Without concrete evidence all we have is hearsay regarding the fight.
Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 10-19-2013 at 02:58 PM.
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In a gossipy community like Chinatown if he had shown up at work with a black eye or bruises you can be ****ed sure people would have talked about it.
And, AGAIN, you'd have to call both Ming Lum and David Chin liars because both have said in print it was a scratch
The above two mentioned consented to use their names and consented to interviews, but I am not going to drag people into something when they aren't aware... I know two people personally who were students of WJM and are lilly white.....
In the same community there were many schools who had white students. Go on the southern forum and ask... you'll get tons of responses
In the past there was indeed clippings of Lee's "challenge"... don't know where it is on the internet, but you can use google if you want
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I suppose. But if you didn't live during that time period or weren't in the area when it occurred you can't be certain of what the gossip surrounding the fight was as you weren't there. You can only go by the accounts of people who were there.
Before I can even begin to assess the credibility of these gentleman I first have to ask you your source for their testimonies. You haven't answered that question yet.And, AGAIN, you'd have to call both Ming Lum and David Chin liars because both have said in print it was a scratch
If this has already been discussed and students of Kung Fu masters in the Bay area who are not of Chinese descent have confirmed their existence perhaps you can direct me to some posts. I personally highly doubt that Bruce Lee was the only person teaching Kung Fu to non-Chinese students in the area. But was it rare enough to spark concern among other teachers in the community? That's possible. I would like to hear from an expert on the topic before reaching a conclusion.The above two mentioned consented to use their names and consented to interviews, but I am not going to drag people into something when they aren't aware... I know two people personally who were students of WJM and are lilly white.....
In the same community there were many schools who had white students. Go on the southern forum and ask... you'll get tons of responses
I did. I didn't find anything....In the past there was indeed clippings of Lee's "challenge"... don't know where it is on the internet, but you can use google if you want
The internet is pretty vast so if these clippings existed at any time surely there would be copies of them on the internet or at least a mentioning of them.
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As a former student of Wong Jack Man's, I have been debating this subject for years. Because of my proximity to Sifu Wong and the people in his circles I came to find out a great many details that weren't in the Michael Dorgan article and weren't known by the general public until now.
Before you guys keep going on about the same "facts" that have been known for decades, why not read about the facts that nobody knew about until Rick Wing published, "Showdown in Oakland: The Story Behind the Wong Jack Man - Bruce Lee Fight" (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakla.../dp/B00AR0KE1I). Why anyone is discussing this matter without having read that book, which was endorsed by Ming Lum and James Yim Lee's son, Greglon Lee, is beyond me.
The kindle edition is all that's available right now but if you don't have a kindle all you need is a computer and an amazon account to read it with the Kindle Cloud Reader or the Kindle Reader app (which are both free). The only cost would be the price of the book which is $9.95.
I know this might sound like I'm advertising the book to increase profits for Sifu Wing's school or something but, in case you didn't know, book publishing isn't that lucrative anyway, and I, for one, am so tired of trying to answer the same questions about this subject when the definitive treatise on the matter has been published. There's so many details in there and, in case you guys were wondering, ALL of the Chinese Pacific Weekly articles are displayed and translated. There's pictures of every location relevant to this event, interviews with almost everyone involved, and detailed histories of both Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man. If you guys are so interested in this subject then you should read that book first before commenting on this thread at all. Believe me, there will be a lot fewer questions about what happened.
Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 10-29-2013 at 06:00 PM.
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
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The fight will get revisited on the big screen soon. See our Birth-of-the-Dragon thread.
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