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Thread: Training

  1. #31
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    MK has earned a reputation as a fighter in Germany and has put his butt on the line for his VT numerous times against people of various backgrounds (other KF styles, MMA, etc..) who have come to test him out.

    ---Great! Those are the clips I would like to see! Why are none of them up online?



    Neither of these guys are from the same line, and you know that. You have been told.

    ---Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?



    A pretty useless application, since he rarely accomplishes anything by it and doesn't know what to do once he gets it on. Looks like a display of dominance, more than anything.


    ---But an "application" nonetheless. So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications. So maybe it is Phillip Bayer that came up with this idea that WSLVT has absolutely NO applications??? Realize I'm not saying that as a bad thing. Systems should grow and evolve and each prominent teacher should use their own insight. I'm pointing this out as a very possible explanation for what you have been saying for awhile on different forums and what we actually see on-line. You keep saying go and study WSLVT if I really want to know. But apparently I couldn't go to David Petersen, Gary Lam, Wang Xi Ping, Jai Harmon, or Jerry Yeung. And it seems that list just keeps getting longer and it is seeming like you really mean I need to go and train with a Phillip Bayer student. And you tend to try and generalize what you write about as being "real" Ip Man VT", when it doesn't even seem to generalize to all WSLVT. There just seems to be a disconnect here somewhere. And I know....you are going to point out to me that I have been told numerous times that the disconnect is because Ip Man taught only a very few (it seems only WSL) his "real" and complete system and all the others either didn't stay around long enough, weren't good enough students, or have gone off and filled in gaps due to incomplete knowledge. I'm just still not sure I buy that.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-13-2017 at 03:25 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---Great! Those are the clips I would like to see! Why are none of them up online?
    Why don't you ask him?

    ---Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?
    Just different, and I didn't even mentioned PB.

    So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications.
    And we have a guy (hint: you) who has no idea what he's talking about.
    Last edited by LFJ; 04-13-2017 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I'm pointing this out as a very possible explanation for what you have been saying for awhile on different forums and what we actually see on-line.
    The internet isn't really a great place to learn VT, especially when you are trying to piece things together on your own with 0 prior knowledge or experience.

    I'm just still not sure I buy that.
    I don't care.

  4. #34
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    Everyone and every system trains applications to a certain degree, much like one learns the alphabet then words then sentences, etc..

    In the end, the proof of the validity of ANY training methodology is in the pudding and that "pudding" for Martial arts is VS other trained Martial artist actively trying to beat your ass.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Everyone and every system trains applications to a certain degree, much like one learns the alphabet then words then sentences, etc..

    In the end, the proof of the validity of ANY training methodology is in the pudding and that "pudding" for Martial arts is VS other trained Martial artist actively trying to beat your ass.
    I understand that you are probably trying to see both sides and defuse the argument but WSL VT doesn't train applications. There is no "if this then this" stimulus response type training. There is no alphabet then sentences type approach in terms of the forms and drills. It is a very simple concept based system.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Great! Those are the clips I would like to see! Why are none of them up online?
    Please direct your crying in the direction of Michael Kurth. I don't speak for him. Given that he isn't posting gym sparring on the internet at the moment I doubt that your anger and frustration will make him change his mind. He will probably just invite you to come and see for yourself.

    Are they not both WSLVT???? Are you now saying that Phillip Bayer's version of WSLVT is the only "real" thing?
    There are WSL VT teachers not from PB who are teaching the same thing. It is strange that you always focus on the ones doing something different.

    So what it comes down to is that we have video of WSL himself teaching applications from the forms. We have video of various people from different branches of the WSLVT lineage doing applications. You keep saying go and study WSLVT if I really want to know. But apparently I couldn't go to David Petersen, Gary Lam, Wang Xi Ping, Jai Harmon, or Jerry Yeung. And you tend to try and generalize what you write about as being "real" Ip Man VT", when it doesn't even seem to generalize to all WSLVT.
    Gary Lam, WZP and WKL are teaching their own thing. We have discussed the others. There must be a reason you don't want to accept standard WSL VT explanations from people doing standard WSL VT and I think it is because you are too scared to entertain the idea that you need to change what you do. There can't be many other viable reasons at this point. Either try it, or don't try it and forget about it. Going on about it constantly just shows how much it bothers you.

    So maybe it is Phillip Bayer that came up with this idea that WSLVT has absolutely NO applications???
    No, it is standard WSL VT which is the same as YM VT.

    There just seems to be a disconnect here somewhere
    The disconnect is that you are a fundamentally dishonest person and cannot even tell the truth to yourself. I can't help you with this, I am sorry

    Ip Man taught only a very few..all the others either didn't stay around long enough, weren't good enough students, or have gone off and filled in gaps due to incomplete knowledge
    Correct

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    I understand that you are probably trying to see both sides and defuse the argument but WSL VT doesn't train applications. There is no "if this then this" stimulus response type training. There is no alphabet then sentences type approach in terms of the forms and drills. It is a very simple concept based system.
    If you are making a fist, you are learning an alphabet and if you are taught how to use it and where, you are learning a sentence.
    It's all fine and dandy THINKING you are doing something special and unique, as long as you realize that THINKING something doesn't make it so.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    There are WSL VT teachers not from PB who are teaching the same thing. It is strange that you always focus on the ones doing something different.
    The disconnect is that you are a fundamentally dishonest person
    Correct!

    And how many times has this strawman been taken down on the other forum? Several dozen, easy!

    Yet, here he comes again back to singling out PB for some reason to pit him against other well-known instructors.

    A very dishonest and divisive person...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    If you are making a fist, you are learning an alphabet and if you are taught how to use it and where, you are learning a sentence.
    The point is, this sort of thinking doesn't exist in WSLVT:

    Alphabet = techniques from forms
    Words = 1:1 application drills
    Sentences = use in fighting

    It's all fine and dandy THINKING you are doing something special and unique, as long as you realize that THINKING something doesn't make it so.
    I don't think anything is "special" about WSLVT, but it is a different approach.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    The point is, this sort of thinking doesn't exist in WSLVT:

    Alphabet = techniques from forms
    Words = 1:1 application drills
    Sentences = use in fighting



    I don't think anything is "special" about WSLVT, but it is a different approach.
    Hogwash.
    Doesn't matter if you THINK this sort of thinking doesn't exist because it quite clearly does.
    You can call it "concept based dish washing" and it won't change what it is.

    Seems like you guys are simply doing what everyone else is and calling it something else, which is fine but don't think that it makes WHAT you are doing anything special.
    That said, I will give you the "different approach".
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Hogwash.
    Doesn't matter if you THINK this sort of thinking doesn't exist because it quite clearly does.
    Not in WSLVT. And how do you know better?

    Seems like you guys are simply doing what everyone else is and calling it something else, which is fine
    How would you know?

    but don't think that it makes WHAT you are doing anything special.
    Who said it did?

    That said, I will give you the "different approach".
    Then it's not "simply doing what everyone else is".

  12. #42
    probably best directed to LFJ or Guy... but is this young guy learning the "PB" method? I assume he is since he is a student of KG...but was wondering if you two could tell if his body methods, flow, coordination, timing, muk jong are fairly consistent with PB's European students(?). Thanks.

    http://www.vingtsunusa.com/news.html

    (scroll down to the clip of KG and ? ).

  13. #43
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    Are you telling me that you never even ONCE told or showed someone how to make a fist? where to hit with it?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Are you telling me that you never even ONCE told or showed someone how to make a fist? where to hit with it?
    A punch is not 1:1 application, i.e. not "when they do that, you do this".

    It doesn't fit into this type of methodology;

    Alphabet = techniques from forms (e.g. taan-sau)
    Words = 1:1 application drills (taan-da to block hooks)
    Sentences = use in fighting (yeah right!)

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    tell if his body methods, flow, coordination, timing, muk jong are fairly consistent with PB's European students(?).
    Are you trying to compare skill or method? He has been to training with PB in Europe along with European students. The drilling is pretty standard.

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