Wing Chun Fighting - No Bridge No sensitivity!

[Graham H]

You misunderstand. I didnt say that the only reason the huen saus are there is for wrist breaks. There is no one single application for a movement. There are many applications for a lot of movements IMO. The huen sau is very effective for breaking grabs, just as a tan sau is. And just because a tan sau is good for a wrist break does not mean that is the only thing the tan sau is good for.

Yes my friend does TWC and I may have some criticisms of TWC in general but I know this guy and some of the other TWC practitioners where I live are very good.

Well for me Tan Sau is a punch. I can't see Tan Sau being able to break from a wrist grab so you see the problem? I also wouldn't use Huen Sau for the same things either.



GH

[trubblman]

I can't see Tan Sau being able to break from a wrist grab so you see the problem?

GH

Very clearly. And for your edification a bong sau, tan sau and a huen sau can break a grab. I have heard a gum sau can also be used be used to break a grab but that's a behind the back grab. I would imagine it could do likewise even for a non behind the back grab but I have never seen it done that way.

[WC1277]

I don't think huen sau would be a very good one, unless you wan't to break your wrist, but you can use almost any movement that has a "cutting edge" to get out of a grab.

The whole idea of control and bridge building is an often misunderstood concept and IMO is anything but what 99% of the WC world promotes.

To have 'control' is in it's most basic applications is essentially to force the opponent to "lean on your wall" and you not lean on his. Think about it, you lean on a wall, your weight distribution, your entire body 'structure' is dependent on that wall holding you up. If you let your 'arm' go, you fall into the wall. You get hit. Good WC works very much the same way. Some could call this the "glass technique".

A simple exercise can demonstrate this in action. Stand in any position and have a buddy push you, slowly. Your goal is to push back at him at some point on his body that neutralizes his forward pressure. It can be anywhere, the arm(s) that's pushing you, his stomach, his right shoulder, you name it. But the goal is to find that 'sweet spot' where you can push back with as little effort as your index finger to neutralize his power. If done right, you're body will stay rooted, and his body will now feel "locked" so to speak. He's now leaning on your wall. For him to do anything, he will now have to un-lean on your wall. For you, that's your timing to hit him and you should quite easily feel the ease of that hit. And for him, he now has two steps to take, so it will be quite difficult for him to counter you.

So what is that in action? The 'sweet spot' in WC is your "cutting in" where you maximize the likelihood of someone "leaning"(i.e. Triangle towards center)..... Anytime contact is made, WC or not, there is a very short time period where a decision needs to be made on who will lean on who's wall. I'm talking micro-seconds here. The entire point of Chi Sao is to master that "grace period" along with your "cutting/triangle".

Think of it this way, say you deflect a punch with a bong sau but he doesn't turn off his power once that line of attack is covered by you. What happens? We've all felt it most likely.... he's 'leaning'. It took you effort(muscle(power)/"active") to move into a bong sau. But hopefully, all you're doing now, is just using enough muscular tension to just hold your arm in that shape(passive). The battle is between who turns off first. The triangle forces him to have to try to cut back to get to you, which makes it harder for him to turn off. He's trying to break through it even if for just a split-second longer. You 'cut', and unless he turns his power off, he's now 'leaning'. You have now beat him at the "grace period" and now the moment he tries to move off that wall is when he will fall into your hit and there is nothing he can do about it. This is what Ip Man meant when he said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him'. The Opponent will open himself up to you. You don't do it to him. All you do is create a wall for him to lean on over and over and over again! And if there is no contact, it's simple, you hit him!

So is it possible to get out of a grab with any cutting movement. Absolutely. WC is forward movement, right? Let someone grab your arm. Now immediately move into a tan sau while you step forward or even turn. If you didn't "force" your movement, you have just correctly 'jammed' them. Or in other words...... you have just successfully won the "grace period" and they're now leaning on your wall.....

[Buddha_Fist]

Too complicated theory.

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple!

[YouKnowWho]

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple!

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- When you try to use your left hand to punch on his face,
- he pulls your right arm toward your left (his right).
- your body will be pulled and spin to your left,
- Your left arm will be jamed by your own right arm, and
- your left hand won't be able to reach to his nose.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do this, he will deserve to be punched on his nose by your left hand.

There is "smart" grab and there is "stupid" grab. A "smart" grab requires:

- proper angle (use your leading arm to jam your back arm),
- shaking (give you a quick shacking to destroy your structure),
- double controls (one hand grabs on your wrist while the other hand grabs on your elbow),
- footwork (move toward your side door - blind spot).

[imperialtaichi]

Too complicated theory.

Someone grabs my arm, I punch his nose with my other arm. Simple!

While I don't think it is as simple as that, I do think that we tend to over complicate things with theories and techniques. But hey, forums would be a very boring place if no one to talk sh!t.

[LoneTiger108]

I find it a bit strange that people have not studied huensau, because if you haven't trained your 'tiger mouth' (fuhao) of the hand you will not have experienced how easy it is to escape from grabs with ANY *seed, single handed

*seed = bong, tan and fook

For those that apply strict rules to their seed, ie. tan = punch, or "bong HAS to be exactly this way" are totally missing the boat imho. I was taught that tansau is a striking concept, but to even think that striking means punching is a bit narrow minded

[CFT]

^^
Just to save people the effort of looking it up, the 'tiger mouth' (fu hou) is the web of skin between the thumb and index finger.

[LoneTiger108]

^^
Just to save people the effort of looking it up, the 'tiger mouth' (fu hou) is the web of skin between the thumb and index finger.

FWIW It's not exactly a web of skin, it's a specific muscle group of the hand that gets stronger through any weaponry or grip practise, but you're right about the positioning.

[k gledhill]

Why do you do chi sau?

So you dont do chi sau to feel or develop your sensitivity?

Its not about feeling bridges, its being aware there isnt one and if there is , wheres the water going ? do I follow it back ? do I let it flow past me without even worrying... do I let it come and spray wildy past me out of control.
In fighting we dont seek arms we hit the head and body, if the arms stop me I have a method to regain the goal using simple techniques.

lat sao chet chung ! a water fight , angle and move.

What does a partner present to you as he does chi-sao with you ? a pressure barrier that like new plumbing, gets pressure tested for leaks
The more pressure I put on a simple series of joints the more likely I will find a leak, when I do I help repair it.
I am not feeling the pipe and controlling the pipe, I am the water inside it as is my partner. We both try to improve our force of water pressure so upon release it goes at the center/head/body.
iow Where is the water aiming? ... my partner aims right back at me not at the pipe I aim back with ....leaks are more present than one might think

If you use the nozzle tip of pipe itself to block your water aims in that direction too....if you treat the nozzle as a way to deflect with part of its base [elbow] you see a method that allows both aim and defense in one water jet.

Once the leaks are found and repaired we can add more pipe to another room, then test that and on until we have a simple pattern of angles and motion that flows randomly depending on what level plumber your facing

Wherever you put the pipe I come and test, you put pipe at an angle i see if its straight or not I have a line I use to check its alignment to me . if it deviates by 1 cm I can show you a leak you might try to fix it on the spot with a crude patch but I can show you that by maintaining the original simple alignment it is simpler and also prevents water from reaching you as you apply the crude block. If I deviate from the idea , I get wet too.

Some guys get cool nicknames like Machine , Terminator, I am the plumber I am here to test the integrity of your plumbing

WSL used an analogy of a simple water fight to describe the futility of trying to block water while standing in front waving arms like blocks...you might stop some but you will get wet unless you adopt another strategy.

[Buddha_Fist]

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- When you try to use your left hand to punch on his face,
- he pulls your right arm toward your left (his right).
- your body will be pulled and spin to your left,
- Your left arm will be jamed by your own right arm, and
- your left hand won't be able to reach to his nose.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do this, he will deserve to be punched on his nose by your left hand.

There is "smart" grab and there is "stupid" grab. A "smart" grab requires:

- proper angle (use your leading arm to jam your back arm),
- shaking (give you a quick shacking to destroy your structure),
- double controls (one hand grabs on your wrist while the other hand grabs on your elbow),
- footwork (move toward your side door - blind spot).

There are a zillion theoretical this-for-that scenarios that can be written about, and a lot is plausible in this fashion. The shocking thing however, is that Ving Tsun practitioners write a compendium of posts about how to solve the problem by chasing hands as opposed to considering first and foremost to go after the centerline with what the Ving Tsun practitioner should be proficient with, the punch (or chop or whatever striking attack you fancy).

If you have been grabbed, you already did a mistake for letting this happen. There are a zillion positions and ways in which you could be grabbed, so there is no point of discussing specific scenarios. First thing to consider for a Ving Tsun practitioner should be whether the way is open to strike instantaneously (Lat Sao Jik Chung) and explosively. If that is not possible, you may be in a bigger hole, and other actions have to be considered (Biu Jee should ring a bell at this stage).

Now, if you want proper grappling, you are way better off by learning BJJ or something along the lines.

[k gledhill]

There are a zillion theoretical this-for-that scenarios that can be written about, and a lot is plausible in this fashion. The shocking thing however, is that Ving Tsun practitioners write a compendium of posts about how to solve the problem by chasing hands as opposed to considering first and foremost to go after the centerline with what the Ving Tsun practitioner should be proficient with, the punch (or chop or whatever striking attack you fancy).

If you have been grabbed, you already did a mistake for letting this happen. There are a zillion positions and ways in which you could be grabbed, so there is no point of discussing specific scenarios. First thing to consider for a Ving Tsun practitioner should be whether the way is open to strike instantaneously (Lat Sao Jik Chung) and explosively. If that is not possible, you may be in a bigger hole, and other actions have to be considered (Biu Jee should ring a bell at this stage).

Now, if you want proper grappling, you are way better off by learning BJJ or something along the lines.

Good post .......

[Yoshiyahu]

VT is about controlling the bridge. Personally I thought VT was about winning the fight. Controlling the bridge is a concept that VT and some other Chinese martial arts use. Long before VT there was fighting. Fighting is about defeating the opponent. VT is one way but despite what many VT practitioners say is not the most efficient. No single style is more efficient than another, it is how the fighter uses it.



Why dont you and your fellow students engage in friendly sparring matches out of school? Or spar with practitioners of other arts and see what works?

I agree im always open to friendly sparring with people of other styles. Just recently I started meeting other WC guys in my area. So most of my life all i had contact with what was other styles. But thanks you are so right.


But let me asked you do you Practice Yong Chun?

Also WC is about seeking the bridge to control your opponent so you can hit him easily an he cant hit you. I can punch and kick all day long. But why just kick and punch when I have so many other weapons at my disposal.

WC RANGE STARTS

when your opponent enters your personal space or you enter his. This is evitable with an aggressive opponent. WC teaches us to be aggressive as well. Chi Sau, Chi Gerk, Gor Sau and San Shou teaches us to be comfortable inclose. But when your inclose an want to bang it out...you should do more than punch 1000 times an pray you land more blows?

Do you use Tan, Bong, Bil and Pak when you spar?

[EternalSpring]

Why don't WC schools have sparring which forces the student to utilize Wing Chun techniques?

There are ways of chi saoing that are very similar to sparring, some may even think it is sparring upon seeing it if they didn't know anything about Ving Tsun. A lot of questions concerning the application of chi sao training are brought up because people tend to think of "chum kiu" level chi sao'ing to be the ultimate definition of chi sao. It's really just the first stage in two handed chi sao

[Sean66]

There are people who specifically train the grab; who continually seek to connect to your arms, control them, grab them and then manipulate them in some way, either to set up a strike, a throw or a sweep.

Against someone who has really trained this, like in tang lang quan or shuai jiao, it's very difficult to avoid, and difficult to counter.

I just sparred this morning against someone who does a lot of taijiquan and yi quan and, well, it wasn't always easy and I got popped my share of times.

What helped? Staying relaxed and focused on the idea of lat sau jik chung, using heun sau to change sides and gain the flank, using the concept of "folding" when grabbed in order to enter with elbow strikes, and kicking low to the shins and knees.