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Thread: Green Dragon Studios

  1. #541
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    Like David Carter has any credibility here......
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  2. #542
    Like David Carter has any credibility here......
    Ah, the Royal Drag. genius strikes again!

    I said to ask about the process they went through. Who else did they check with, for example? Whatever you might think of Cater, he was in touch with numerous people throughout the CMA. Including, say, Ark Wong. And, um...others.

    And as silly as it is (cover story on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, eg), IKF isn't really all that much sillier than any other of the "kung fu" ragazines out there.


  3. #543
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    I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu, especially Tai Tzu.

    The point peope make is that he stole forms from competitions, and then tried to copy them to sell on his tapes. Well, I HAVE his Tai Tzu tape, and I can clearly see that noone on that tape knows any Tai Tzu at all. It *Clearly* looks like a KArate guy, wiht really, really bad fundementals copied the choreogrhy only form a tape or book or something. No real Tai Tzu there at all. I don't need to ask anyone anything as I am my own expert on the subject.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  4. #544
    I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu etc etc
    I guess the main problem I'm having is that I didn't know your other username was kal.

    Oh well, gotta go train. But whatta thread!

    And peace be wit' you.

  5. #545
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    Thumbs down misrepresenting the facts

    Quote Originally Posted by iron tiger View Post
    ..Leaving Master Ong after sucking him dry of Info...

    The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?

    Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.

    (wink)
    Rhetorical or not I am answering you....you wrote The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    That is pure Bull****.
    Master Ong was a very giving man. He treated his students like sons...and would give you the shirt off his back.

    He taught Chicione a Lifetime of information AND many closely guarded secrets of training..and how did Gene repay him??? Leave him and talk several students into leaving with him . Gratitude huh?...NOT!


    And as for it being "taught wrong".. E-Mail Chicione and he will still admit today that Master Ong used to kick his ass on a weekly basis. Why ? It was Master Ongs last attempt to try and develop some humility in Chicione....but my main point is if what he was teaching was so wrong...Chicoine should have been able to defeat Master Ong...I mean he was taller and an extremely good fighter, and he remains so to this day. I suppose the pictures he keeps at Ho Chun of Master Ong are to remind him of all the incorrect teaching he received huh ??

    I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?

    And one last thing...you only adressed one of my descriptions of Chicione,,,
    what about the other ones.????

    Getting kicked off the Police Force
    Owning a Strip Club ( Nice example of morality)
    Threatening other Schools and teachers just to bully them
    Sending his students to Bars to beat up Drunks to "prove" their technigues worked


    I could add more...but why bother.
    You obviously have your mind closed

    JD
    Last edited by JDK; 01-07-2007 at 07:03 PM.

  6. #546
    Funny stuff, JDK.

    I did quite a bit of research before I entered Green Dragon, and even more "footwork" afterward, though...

    More when time. 'Night!

  7. #547
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    In a PM e-mail a former martial arts student from the late 70s ask me to post this.

    Not sure what his point is but as a favor to him here it is:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

    "Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
    Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find
    a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause,
    but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers
    them unlimited opportunities for both".

    Eric Hoffer
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    Akronviper:

    The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
    .

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang Tai Chi
    Thank You Mr. Biggie, Dr. Wu was exactly the man I was thinking of especially because of the Tai Chi training. Just could not remember the name.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?
    JDK, sounds as if your representing the facts to present your own personal agenda. Just that some of the facts seem to be representing this.

  10. #550
    Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum?
    No I didn't. What was the issue and year? I'll try and track it down.

  11. #551
    a Lifetime of information AND many closely guarded secrets of training
    Oh, baloney. And so what if Ong could kick Chicoine or Allen's behinds waaaay back then? Many parts of your reply don't even quite make sense. And you are unquestionably misrepresenting several facts; easily checkable through other sources had other people been so inclined...

    As far as I'm concerned, good enough to just say that some of us define certain words in completely different ways. Words like "generous," for example.

    Lot of other ways to determine just how much "correct" teaching Ong actually passed along to his various students, especially for some of us out here who have a pretty good idea about some of the things he was capable of demonstrating (and did, on many occasions).

    'Nuff said on that. As "closed mind" is another of those nebulous concepts some of us would seem to define differently.



    Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum?
    No I didn't. What was the issue and year? I'll try and track it down.
    Been a long time, but iirr it was Aug '88. But then you have watched those Q & A tapes, no? Or just skimmed through them?

    Interesting thread in any event.

    Now on to more important matters. Like: Go Buckeyes! (tonight, that is).


  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by iron tiger View Post


    Been a long time, but iirr it was Aug '88. But then you have watched those Q & A tapes, no? Or just skimmed through them?

    Interesting thread in any event.

    Now on to more important matters. Like: Go Buckeyes! (tonight, that is).

    Just seen parts of them, and that was quite some time ago.
    I do remember being impressed with Allen's public speaking ability.

    I have Feb 88 which is the Iron Palm article by Chicoine and Allen. I also have the issues where they describe Exotic Weapons as well as the one from May 1990 with the article about Beginners Learining Chinese Weapons.

    I'll have to look for Aug 88.

    I also still need to find the one from September 89, which is the article about Strength training.

    Like I said above, I have always liked reading articles by Green Dragon.

  13. #553
    I have Feb 88
    Cool. I missed that one and never found the back ish that had it (even tried going through IKF/Cater but they had none left in stock). I think that, somewhere or other, I have all the rest except maybe the last one (covered Tiger Paws) or two that appeared after I let my script expire.

    All (there are quite a few) are Xeroxed copies. Sometime or other (early 90s I think) somebody (ex-GD student and one or two "by extension" people) made a zillion copies of these and passed them around to various people, as I understand it.

    I also have quite a few of the old (early 70s/mid 80s?) newspaper articles re: Ong, Chang, Chicoine, Green Dragon, etc., in a box somewhere over the garage? Some I've scanned onto disk, but I'd have to dig 'em out.

    I originally got curious about Green Dragon after seeing their demo team perform in the Kent State Student Center Plaza back in about '80 (?). Started asking around (I had many friends & their older brothers who trained in various area schools, including some of the more "well known" ones). Saw that demo team (slightly different make up) perform & answer questions again at an Akron mall.

    Joined the Kent Club. Friends & I began comparing notes on our training & what kinds of things resulted from doing some of the forms & exercises. Etc. I'd mostly done boxing (Mancini & Dokes being from Y-town & Akron), weights (Black's Health in Cleveland & a few Akron-area gyms) and pro football (boyhood friend was a kid manager/ball boy for the Browns), so there was quite an adjustment necessary. And so on, to the point of a few expeditions to the West Coast where I was given a couple of comprehensive "tours" of dozens of schools by a couple MA friends as well as several fact-finding "missions" of my own.

    Very interesting comparisons between what was going on in some of those schools and what I'd experienced at GD. And heard about regarding Chicoine's school, as I did no training there but have a few acquaintances who did.

    In truth there is a lot that I continue to be curious about concerning the full relationship between Allen & Chicoine. From what I do know, however, neither is too keen on the notion that the CMA community as a whole should be "one big happy family" but rather they tend more to the idea that factions along with some disagreement & competitive dissension is a healthier state of things.

    Chicoine supposedly swore never to teach a sport approach to MA/Shuai Chiao, one of the conditions for his affiliation etc with GM Chang. Allen doesn't believe in that sport-style stuff, either, as he details (ad nauseum, in some views) pretty extensively on a lot of his tapes. He teaches as he was taught by his better teachers (several Chinese masters): in the "Classical" Chinese tradition, that is, as things were done prior to 1930. And does not, and afaik will not, budge from that approach.

    According to that method, beginners are NOTHING, let alone worthy of respect or recognition etc until they EARN it with an amazing amount of work & sweat and PROVE their loyalty over time. People don't like that, or question his approach? Outside of some of his students, he really doesn't give a rat's arse what other people think. But he knows what is taught in other schools and is perfectly capable of demonstrating why he does things differently when someone respectfully asks (they do an orientation with incoming classes where there is a Q & A period, similar to the sessions that were taped for sale, when any question about anything is permitted).

    He really isn't the idiot some portray him to be; and he certainly is not a "frustrated paratrooper"; though, for reasons that become clear at the home school (mostly related to the lack of discipline in the "average" beginning student, as well as matters of time, ie getting everything done), he is very military & regimented in his approach. Around his students he's a surprisingly (to some) nice guy, with a very dry sense of humor. And he does know his stuff (and almost everyone else's!)

    And he did not "steal" his forms (that one is really, really hilarious, actually), or just "make things up".

    I'd seen GM Chang perform before I got into Green Dragon (I knew Chicoine's niece), and then once after at a promotional banquet. And freely admit that I did not really understand what I was seeing at the time, in spite of the fact that he blew my mind. But over the years, and after a lot of hard work on some of those programs (and with the aid of things like Allen's IKF articles) I have a much better understanding of what had been going on.

    In my opinion, knowing what people like Chang, Ong, Ark Wong, and a few others (don't even know who's all still alive these days) were really capable of is what's really missing from TCMA teaching these days; or, as Allen puts it, the "demythologizing" of the Chinese martial arts is one (but just one) of the chief problems with them today.

    On the other hand, even when I've successfully convinced an occasional training partner of what's possible with some of these forms & programs, they just hardly ever stick with it---despite their enthusiasm and support otherwise---once they see how much work & time it really takes to have success with these things.

    I don't really know why Chicoine never entered UFC (or whether Chang would have; he certainly would've won handily---and that's not a remark made lightly) or a similar competition. I've heard from many guys about his closed-door fights. I know that for years he was challenging any & everybody out there to a no-holds-barred rumble, and, again, in all likelihood would've won (the training really does work for the very small handful of people who commit to it, assuming it's been taught corrrectly; and yes, it is a true lifestyle commitment, you can't just do it as any kind of hobby or trophy-hunting sport thing); countless people have related stories & evidence about his fighting skills, and Chang certainly seemed confident of the abilities he made sure Chicoine had before giving him control of the ISCA (& before the Grandmaster's untimely death).

    I wish someone would ask him. (Mr. Cater???)

    Very long (about 30+ years) story compressed into a couple superficial paragraphs, but hopefully you get the gist. (Boy, this is long! Sorry, but I really don't wanna waste my, or anyone else's, time with all this over & over again.) As has been said, some people will simply never be convinced, no matter what you show or tell them. As evidenced by some of the absolutely remarkable demos Allen & Chicoine used to do.

    Anyway, now I really do have to go get ready for the game tonight.

    Happy training to you, kal, and to all. Whatever choices you've made along that line.

    And Go Buckeyes!
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-08-2007 at 01:56 PM. Reason: oops, almost left out an important word(s)...

  14. #554
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    Green Dragon Videos

    http://www.guba.com/watch/2000790797...f9da97bfe06cc1

    This was posted on another forum

    http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1168468297
    _________________________________________

    In reference to the thread posted here on this forum:

    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...=42096&page=21
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  15. #555
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    It maybe inaccurate and not authentic...but it looks like their students do put in the effort! (i.e. they seem to believe in what they do)

    I especially like the first person (girl in aqua blue pony tail) that shows up in the video (and then reappears). She does it pretty good...better then the rest of them. I wonder/hope she went to further her MA.
    Last edited by iron_silk; 01-11-2007 at 11:15 AM.

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