Ng chan wing chun

[Graham H]

Biu Jee has always been kept secret, (it) requires stable sitting in the horse. There are not many movements, we can even say they are very simple. Presently we can say that the videos of Biu Jee are as numerous as the hairs of an ox. In China and beyond there are 'great masters'. It looks like there are no secrets.

To think that BJ is about strengthening fingers by plunging them into sand is ridiculous! BJ used to be kept secret but not because of the reasons that were out there in those days. Still to this day people think that BJ is about "moving chi to the fingertips and about striking with the fingers! It's nonsense!

At least he says one thing that is true......Presently we can say that the videos of Biu Jee are as numerous as the hairs of an ox...this applies not only to BJ and most have conflicting ideas. In my experience it has been plain to see that the further through the system one travels with regards to different lineages the bigger the error in interpretation. It doesn't take Einstein to work out why either.

Anyway keep going Chee and I appreciate the work you are putting into this!

GH

[CFT]

I was surprised to see the 'deadly fingers of Biu Jee' theme to the article. Nothing about the recovery aspects. I'm sure the eyebrows will rise and rise as I work my way through the rest of the article.

[k gledhill]

Maybe you should preface that with: "In the HKM way ..."

Direct quote: " 眼到手到，手到腳到 "

Where the eyes go (眼到) the hands go (手到)，where the hands go (手到) the legs go (腳到).

Could be a case of 'hand leads body' (vs. body leads hand). There was a thread about this not too long ago: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=59533

In The YM/WSL/PB way we would say attack as a unit, eyes+hands+legs = 1 body

[Graham H]

I was surprised to see the 'deadly fingers of Biu Jee' theme to the article. Nothing about the recovery aspects. I'm sure the eyebrows will rise and rise as I work my way through the rest of the article.

Chee

There are aspects of recovery in all the forms. Why? Because in the fury of a fight many things can happen that will diminish our chances of victory. Things such as balance, injury, overshooting with foot or fist, and not facing the opponent to name but a few. Bil Jee presents us with methods of how to cut our losses and how to think in emergencies. We cannot be arrogant and think that we can beat all comers so Bil Jee is our back up plan. It also deals with ways of regaining our control of the centre. If you like we can say that if Chum Kiu fails then Bil Jee will either allow us to regain control or get the f**k out of there! There is more but it’s clear to me that Ng Chan and WSL were very different.

Its easy to say that BJ is for finger striking and contains secret ideas but not so easy to admit that if one is getting beaten they must run! That would make one out to be weak so why not say that one could kill you in one touch rather than fight you. I may scare you away then no need to take such risks! LOL

[WC1277]

In The YM/WSL/PB way we would say attack as a unit, eyes+hands+legs = 1 body

From what I can tell it appears as if WSL moves his body first too.

[Vajramusti]

Words. They can mislead intent. Of course the body has to attack as a unit-but then there are details on what that means. Also distinctions between developmental training and usage in a crisis.

joy chaudhuri

[JPinAZ]

Of course the body has to attack as a unit-but then there are details on what that means. Also distinctions between developmental training and usage in a crisis.

Words. Care to explain these things a bit further and how you address them with your students?

[MOSHE]

Let's give another point , a body who moves first is often the sign of a very physical posture and a lack of ability in managing the use of the strength in the arms independently from the body

[WC1277]

Words. They can mislead intent. Of course the body has to attack as a unit-but then there are details on what that means. Also distinctions between developmental training and usage in a crisis.

joy chaudhuri

True, ultimately the body does move as one unit and the subtitles are very difficult to see when in motion. But there are times when the body obviously moves first to the naked eye, like one of the applications for the balloon concept for instance. But I can't think of anytime where the hand moves first. Even if there isn't a brace or step, the hips still move when the keystone engages.

[WC1277]

Let's give another point , a body who moves first is often the sign of a very physical posture and a lack of ability in managing the use of the strength in the arms independently from the body

Moshe I thought your system was that of what a woman could use. You're contradicting yourself by saying "the strength in the arms independently from the body"

[k gledhill]

Words. They can mislead intent. Of course the body has to attack as a unit-but then there are details on what that means. Also distinctions between developmental training and usage in a crisis.

joy chaudhuri

all in the details....

[MOSHE]

Moshe I thought your system was that of what a woman could use. You're contradicting yourself by saying "the strength in the arms independently from the body"

No at all , instead physical i should have wrote masculine,
So simply , link this to the work on the dummy described above

For you and others , with amability and without any touch of arrogance , I understand that its difficult to figure exactly each time about what we are speaking
Because you never saw it and even if like I said .everything look close , it's still quite different

We met a lot of wing Chun guys from different lineage , and all of them were surprised by the contact with our arms,they never felt this use of the strength

Some passive readers of this thread that have perhaps met us will describe it



Regards

[Vajramusti]

This is for the simple part but moving is quite complex and that's the last part that a master deliver to his successor whatever the style is

------------------------------------------------------------------------True- moving is quite complex and
context and purpose can inform the details.
Contexts: training for body unity and development(chor ma), facing an opponent head on(bai jong), turning to face an opponent(kuen kuit- turn like a cat)
Purpose/intention- attack, break structure, equalize force.
Lots of details.

BTW- in my analysis- from watching Ng Chan in several videos- because of rear leg weighting
his center line seems to sway. In all lineages good people can make their differences work.
Ng Chan;s chor ma appears to be different from HKM and WSL. Though I understand Ng Chan's critique of WSL's elbows in chor ma.

Even when folks are around good teachers subtle differences in detail can appear and those differences are magnified later on.

joy chaudhuri

[MOSHE]

those differences are magnified later on.


Look the ip man video

[Jox]

We met a lot of wing Chun guys from different lineage , and all of them were surprised by the contact with our arms,they never felt this use of the strength

I think it is very hard to describe the feeling. What an apple taste like.
You know how to find out...

But still, I will try to describe it...

I chisaoed with student in Budapest. He was smaller and thinned than me, probably 20 kilos lighter than me. We did chi sao. I felt his hands, essentially I felt all his body, it was all the time present, powerful and flexible penetrating strength.

I had more than 10 years experience in wing chun behind me, but in si fu Pun school it was first time for me I experienced use of strength in a right way. This is it, so simple...


Jox