Brian Grey

[Lokhopkuen]

it's a great question, and really one that has occupied me for some time now; I'm not sure it's fully answerable in writing, because there is a component to it that you either have or don't have, and to date the only way I have been able to demonstrate / experience this is in person;

that said, here's one way to think about it; if you are standing and you breathe in using so-called "belly" or "natural" breathing, your abdomen expands and your pelvic floor relaxes; on the other hand, if you do so-called "reverse" breathing, two things happen differently - the belly resists the anterior movement and the pelvic floor resists the dropping of viscera; meaning that the downward pressure of respiratory diaphragm moves through the structure of the spine / pelvis / hips / legs / feet into the earth; then the earth talks back giving you an upward thrust of ground reaction force, which the connective tissue system takes and uses to elongate the structure and give you that "suspended from the top" feeling; having engaged this mechanism, one now has both stability in the stance and torso and mobility in the torso and arms (of course, there is still mobility in the stance and stability in the arms, but it's relatively less - that whole yin / yang thang); balanced in this way, one now can work / move "internally", because of the unification of the breath to the GRF to the neuromusculoskeletal system;

to me, this is the "correct" expression of "gan" and "hing"; it also, I believe is the ground from which both "sung" and "pang" (or discontinuous compression / continuous tension to use the language of tensegrity as it relates to behavior of connective tissue);

I don't know if it directly answers your question per se - it's just how I think about it

That's a very detailed explanation of some complexed connections and conditions.

I've seen some mentions of using iron filings, river stones, sand and what-not but nearly any resilient object will do. Its really just about gaining experience of the harmonies of internal and external alignments and intention. Striking a phone book for instance can lead the practitioner toward getting used to the feel of what it takes to break various objects without injuring self. A bag full of Mong beans and a good jow to loosen the tissues of the hand and wrist before and after is one of the best methods to start. I you want to get hard core then follow with sand and latter small stones but the beans or book are IMHO enough.

I meet Master Grey in 2001 in Zhong Zhou and found him to be a nice guy and a clever conversationalist. Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe. I saw a couple of his students perform in the tournament and they were clearly out classed by most of the competitors there.

Bottom line is if you intend to pursue a regimen of hand conditioning be smart about it. Finding a good qualified teacher would be the best path to reach your goal. If that is not an option, research online and in books to compare various suggested methods and avoid the bizarre or extreme.

An old martial saying goes:
Twist the waist like a snake,
Root your feet firmly to the ground,
Be calm and patient,
Use your strength naturally,
Achieve your gung fu successfully.

These are good guide line for developing any martial skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a very detailed explanation of some complexed connections and conditions.

I've seen some mentions of using iron filings, river stones, sand and what-not but nearly any resilient object will do. Its really just about gaining experience of the harmonies of internal and external alignments and intention. Striking a phone book for instance can lead the practitioner toward getting used to the feel of what it takes to break various objects without injuring self. A bag full of Mong beans and a good jow to loosen the tissues of the hand and wrist before and after is one of the best methods to start. I you want to get hard core then follow with sand and latter small stones but the beans or book are IMHO enough.

I meet Master Grey in 2001 in Zhong Zhou and found him to be a nice guy and a clever conversationalist. Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe. I saw a couple of his students perform in the tournament and they were clearly out classed by most of the competitors there.

Bottom line is if you intend to pursue a regimen of hand conditioning be smart about it. Finding a good qualified teacher would be the best path to reach your goal. If that is not an option, research online and in books to compare various suggested methods and avoid the bizarre or extreme.

An old martial saying goes:
Twist the waist like a snake,
Root your feet firmly to the ground,
Be calm and patient,
Use your strength naturally,
Achieve your gung fu successfully.

These are good guide line for developing any martial skills.

Well said Sifu.
And Chris ( taai gihk yahn) always manages to explain things in a detailed and understandable way.
It's his curse.

[Eddie]

Although he seemed very enthusiastic about martial art I did not get the feeling he had any real skill. I do not mean any disrespect by this, it's just that I know when I'm in the presence of a skilled practitioner and he lacked the vibe.

No offence, but isn’t that comment a little arrogant?

Having said that, I also have no idea who you are, so my reply was more meant towards an anonymous internet username instead of a real person (if yhat makes sense to you). I have also never met this Brian Grey or any of his students, and probably wont ever do so either.

[taai gihk yahn]

also, what's the big deal in general about IP? it's not magic: you hit something with your hand a great deal over time, you will have adaptive changes to the hand; you don't train too hard so that you damage structure excessively; you will also develop a more efficient whole-body motor plan to deliver that strike which, theoretically, should also help increase the power in your delivery (although it's debatable if you only do downward striking - you would have to practice the IP along the same trajectory that you might hit someone to get the full benefit); as far as the "internal" part, you are basically doing controlled manipulation of autonomics - activating the sympathetics to get you "charged" up and the parasympathetics to help increase one's restorative capacity afterwards; dit da jow is theoretically going to help you "heal" although to date there are no studies that I am aware of that objectively demonstrate what is actually going on biochemically with jow application - not doubting that that possibility exists or that empirically one couldn't derive a formula that "works", but there are a lot of variables to consider here, including placebo effect, which is a powerful factor in any sort of medicine and healing

[Dale Dugas]

No,

IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.

[taai gihk yahn]

No,

IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.

sounds more than reasonable; Dale, are you aware of any biochemical based studies on a) components of herbs in dit da jow; b) physiological effects on tissue / pyhsiology on users thereof?

[TenTigers]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.

Correct.

On top of that, there are jows that are stricly "bruise ointments" and then there is IP Jow and anyone that has used both can tell the difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone can break wood and bricks and slabs, it jsut takes training.
What makes IP training different, in the regards to breaking, is that one is able to break with less effort.
There is less "powering through" the object and more "relaxed drop".
Of course as the thickness increases so must the amount of force.
But even in my clip you can see that I break a 2 x 8 x 16 patio slab with just a "drop" of the hand.
I could break that before, but I would have to slam it much harder.
Same thing with the other clips of guys like Dale and the "mutant hand" guy from China and tao123chi and of course Sifu Miller.

[taai gihk yahn]

what alot of people fail to realize about jow is, that it is not about simply rubbing jow into your hand like hand lotion, but a very specific method of deep tissue massage that promotes healing and allows the jow to work. Without knowledge of this, you are like I said, simply applying hand lotion.

deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation

Correct.
On top of that, there are jows that are stricly "bruise ointments" and then there is IP Jow and anyone that has used both can tell the difference.

true, but again, that subjective feeling could be based on the ingredients - for example, you will feel a big difference in a linement if it has things like capsicum or camphor in it (not saying it does, just making an observation - I am no jow mix-master; this is again not saying jow does or doesn't "work", just that one's subjective reports as to what it is doing is not necessarily an indicator of anything, unfortunately

again, don't get me wrong - I am not trying to "debunk" anything - just pointing out some issues; I think that at this point doing both analysis and clinical studies on jow would be a reasonable step in the right direction;

[TenTigers]

there are also jows that serve both purposes, where they also include herbs that nourish bone, tendon and ligaments. Some IP jows contain herbs that can, if used incorrectly cause the bones to become "over-tempered" and brittle. If you are to learn true IP, it is best if your Sifu is a dit da yee, or a doctor who specializes in bone and soft tissue trauma healing. Higher levels of IP, such as Cinnabar Palm, should be carefully monitored by a Sifu/doctor who can make sure that you are not incurring any injuries or stagnations along the way. Much of the "higher levels" of IP are more involved with noi-gung, and are not to be entered into lightly.
Of course, as we all know,these are all myths unless you can substantiate such claims by demonstrationg on youtube.

[TenTigers]

deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation

agreed. Some people have allergies to ingredients in many jow formulas, and have had great results from using proper massage, moist heat, and other liniments such as bak fa yao. In some cases, hot water and massage is all that is needed.

[taai gihk yahn]

there are also jows that serve both purposes, where they also include herbs that nourish bone, tendon and ligaments. Some IP jows contain herbs that can, if used incorrectly cause the bones to become "over-tempered" and brittle. If you are to learn true IP, it is best if your Sifu is a dit da yee, or a doctor who specializes in bone and soft tissue trauma healing. Higher levels of IP, such as Cinnabar Palm, should be carefully monitored by a Sifu/doctor who can make sure that you are not incurring any injuries or stagnations along the way. Much of the "higher levels" of IP are more involved with noi-gung, and are not to be entered into lightly.
Of course, as we all know,these are all myths unless you can substantiate such claims by demonstrationg on youtube.

unfortunately, the idea of an external lineament making a bone "brittle" is questionable at best - what would be the evidence to substantiate this? higher rate of fracture? confirmed osteopenia or osteoperosis? all these things can be measured very accurately, so to make a claim like that one would be at least responsible for providing data;

again, this does not discount subjective, anecdotal data about one's personal experience, but it also does not allow one to generalize with validity or reliability

[sanjuro_ronin]

deep massage in and of itself could actually have as much if not more to do with the healing effect than the jow itself; not saying it does, but it's a very strong variable in the overall equation



true, but again, that subjective feeling could be based on the ingredients - for example, you will feel a big difference in a linement if it has things like capsicum or camphor in it (not saying it does, just making an observation - I am no jow mix-master; this is again not saying jow does or doesn't "work", just that one's subjective reports as to what it is doing is not necessarily an indicator of anything, unfortunately

again, don't get me wrong - I am not trying to "debunk" anything - just pointing out some issues; I think that at this point doing both analysis and clinical studies on jow would be a reasonable step in the right direction;

No one is more of a "doubter" than I when it comes to TCMA and I know you know where I am coming from.
I did a little experiement on my shins with the IP jow and regular jow.
I bruised my shins while conditioning and on one put regular bruise jow and the other the IP jow, massaged them the same for the same length of time.
The bruise with IP jow was gone in about 24 hours, the other took around 48, hardly scientific, but "god enough" for comparative purposes.
Of course bruises on me tend to be gone in less than 72 hours anyways, no matter how bad.

[sanjuro_ronin]

unfortunately, the idea of an external lineament making a bone "brittle" is questionable at best - what would be the evidence to substantiate this? higher rate of fracture? confirmed osteopenia or osteoperosis? all these things can be measured very accurately, so to make a claim like that one would be at least responsible for providing data;

again, this does not discount subjective, anecdotal data about one's personal experience, but it also does not allow one to generalize with validity or reliability

Not sure how much ANY external ointment will effect bones directly.