Brian Grey

[taai gihk yahn]

agreed. Some people have allergies to ingredients in many jow formulas, and have had great results from using proper massage, moist heat, and other liniments such as bak fa yao. In some cases, hot water and massage is all that is needed.

it would make for a nice comparative research study: one control group, one group using jow applied lightly, one using jow applied deeply, one group only doing deep massage (you might even have one group using "sham" jow as well, but that would make it even more complex); but you would need at least 20 people per group for statistical power, you'd have to standardize the jow formula, and you'd have to standardize both the training portion (e.g. - specific # of strikes on a bag at a specific force level) and the massage part; then you'd have to have a reliable / valid measurement: probably a subjective reports using some sort of standardized reporting tool, in terms of reorting pain, stiffness, etc.; you might be able to do some sort of functional testing, but that would be tricky to establish; finally, you might test physiological markers of some sort, but again, not sure what that would involve

bottom line - good research is difficult at best, because of all the variables involved; and then, of course, there is the notion that all training of this type is highly individualized, that standardization is not only impossible, it is undesirable; which, of course, is fine - but then one is not able to make an generalized statements regarding the practice or the jow itself - there's always a tradeoff between specificity and generalizability!

[taai gihk yahn]

Not sure how much ANY external ointment will effect bones directly.

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?

I don't know how much the Jow effects the increase in bone density of the hand, but I do know that there is noticible changes even after 1 year of IP training.
I had a comparative X-ray done of my right hand after I started IP, it was compared to a X-ray that I had done on the same hand before, when I had dislocated my finger, and even the technical commented on it, although only after I asked him if he saw any differences.

[bakxierboxer]

there are lots of meds that you apply dermaly which impact tissues more deeply - iontophoresis and phonophoresis use electric stim and ultrasound respectively to "drive" meds applied superficially into deeper layers of tissue; hormonal creams have "deeper" impact (I don't know about bones specifically, can ask the wif that); so, the idea of applying a lineament to the hands and having the bones impacted is not too far fetched on one level, because they are rather superficial - the question is how would one ascertain whether the purported impact is actually occurring or not?

There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.

What is "hyaluronic acid" ?

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't know how much the Jow effects the increase in bone density of the hand, but I do know that there is noticible changes even after 1 year of IP training.
I had a comparative X-ray done of my right hand after I started IP, it was compared to a X-ray that I had done on the same hand before, when I had dislocated my finger, and even the technical commented on it, although only after I asked him if he saw any differences.

what exactly did the tech claim to see?

as far as the film comparison: the x-ray would have needed to have been taken by the same machine, at the same distance; and also read by a radiologist, not a tech, who was blinded to which was the "before" and which was the "after";

anyway to have accurate readings on bone density you would need to have a bone density scan;

again, I do not doubt that training IP could increase bone density per se;

[bakxierboxer]

What is "hyaluronic acid" ?

Umm.... "memory" is the first thing to go........

S/B "hyaluronidase".......

http://www.answers.com/hyaluronidase

Basically, this version I heard had it that it was derived from bovine testicular "matter".
(ok, "bull balls")
Hyaluronidase promotes cell-wall permeability which allows for easier inflow/outflow of blood/fluids/whatever from the area in which it is applied.... which, if injured, "promotes healing"......

[TenTigers]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment. I knew someone who claimed it took away her wrinkles.
My ex used to mix this with essential oil of lavender, and it did wonders for her psoriasis.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what exactly did the tech claim to see?

as far as the film comparison: the x-ray would have needed to have been taken by the same machine, at the same distance; and also read by a radiologist, not a tech, who was blinded to which was the "before" and which was the "after";

anyway to have accurate readings on bone density you would need to have a bone density scan;

again, I do not doubt that training IP could increase bone density per se;

Well it was the same machine, don't know about the distance and it was the same tech.
The before and after were marked by the date on the files, he showed me them side by side ( Cool guy, does Aikido).
The reason I took the second x-ray was marked by my doctor as a comparative one to see how the dislocated finger had healed ( an excuse yes, but that's how I roll !).
He mentioned a bone density scan but I could never get one unless an Osteoperois specialist would recommend one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Umm.... "memory" is the first thing to go........

S/B "hyaluronidase".......

http://www.answers.com/hyaluronidase

Basically, this version I heard had it that it was derived from bovine testicular "matter".
(ok, "bull balls")
Hyaluronidase promotes cell-wall permeability which allows for easier inflow/outflow of blood/fluids/whatever from the area in which it is applied.... which, if injured, "promotes healing"......

Cool, thanks.

[taai gihk yahn]

There was an "old story" (even to me) about a TCM practitioner who "cooperated" with a "western medical researcher" and told him about the ingredients in his jow.
Supposedly the upshot was the "discovery" of hyaluronic acid.....
No credit/reward was given to the TCM practitioner.... and no further "cooperation" occurred.

c'mon - that's just totally bunk, with a nice "evil-mainstream-medical-practitioner-screws-honest-alternative-practitioner" bias thrown in;

first, hyaluronic acid has been "known" for at least 50+ years

BTW, jow formulas are no secret - Bob Flaws published a book 20 years ago with some very good recipies; no medical professional would "need" a TCM practitioner to get the ingredients; also, studies on biochemical properties of herbs have been conducted for a long time, one could easily research which of them contain hyaluronic acid if any do;

[bakxierboxer]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment. I knew someone who claimed it took away her wrinkles.
My ex used to mix this with essential oil of lavender, and it did wonders for her psoriasis.

Once you know what you're looking for, there are usually a number of sources of the "same" or "similar" agents.

[taai gihk yahn]

I wonder if the herb that contains this chemical is also in Ching Wa Hung burn ointment.

IMPE, that stuff is incredible! I have personally observed it resolve a second degree burn (blistering) on myself after ~15 minutes with a significant decrease in pain almost immediately; (BTW, this assessment would qualify as "subjective anecdotal", and therefore would not be generalizable)

however, one thing about patent Chinese "herbal" pharmaceuticals - you never know what's really in them; for example, one "herbal" cream that an herbalist gave to one of my training brothers for his cold sores had two ingredients listed on the tube "tetricyclini et cortisoni"

[bakxierboxer]

c'mon - that's just totally bunk, with a nice "evil-mainstream-medical-practitioner-screws-honest-alternative-practitioner" bias thrown in;

So, you're saying that it absolutely couldn't have happened that way?

first, hyaluronic acid has been "known" for at least 50+ years

OK, youngster.... I heard that story just about 50 years ago, and it was supposedly an "old story" then.

BTW, jow formulas are no secret - Bob Flaws published a book 20 years ago with some very good recipies; no medical professional would "need" a TCM practitioner to get the ingredients; also, studies on biochemical properties of herbs have been conducted for a long time, one could easily research which of them contain hyaluronic acid if any do;

OK.... now take that back 50+ years ago.
Effin' MA (of the striking varieties) were "almost unknown" back then.
We're talking about days when there were three (3) "karate schools" in all of LA.
(and not many more than that when looking at all of SoCal)
The "usual" response when inquiring about Chinatown about there being any Chinese version of "karate" was "No! no Chinese karate!" (completely avoiding the mention of "anything else")
(let alone the training/conditioning aspects/aids)

[taai gihk yahn]

So, you're saying that it absolutely couldn't have happened that way?

nice try, but no cigar; while technically anything is possible, it's so improbable as to render it essentially non-debatable - for example, the fact that there are no names or other identifying data associated with the story makes it totally suspect; and also that the history of it's discovery is well-documented (below is one example):

Hyaluronic acid was discovered in 1934 by Karl Meyer and John Palmer, scientists at Columbia University, New York. They isolated the substance from a cow’s eye and conceived the name from hyalos (Greek work for glass) and the uronic sugar found in the substance. Hyaluronic acid was first used commercially in 1942 when Endre Balazs applied for a patent to use it as a substitute for egg white in bakery products. He went on to become the leading expert on hyaluronic acid and made the majority of discoveries relating to hyaluronic acid over the next fifty years.

slightly more plausible than someone stealing a dit da jow formula and stiffing the TCM guy who he got it from

OK, youngster.... I heard that story just about 50 years ago, and it was supposedly an "old story" then.

ok "oldster", and what? 50 yrs. ago BS was still BS, AFAIK, if not more so given that the ability to debunk stories of that nature was a lot less than it is now

OK.... now take that back 50+ years ago.
Effin' MA (of the striking varieties) were "almost unknown" back then.
We're talking about days when there were three (3) "karate schools" in all of LA.
(and not many more than that when looking at all of SoCal)
The "usual" response when inquiring about Chinatown about there being any Chinese version of "karate" was "No! no Chinese karate!" (completely avoiding the mention of "anything else")
(let alone the training/conditioning aspects/aids)

that is all very interesting, but essentially irrelevant to the point about the story you heard being ridiculous;