Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Sal Canzonieri]

1st the teacher EMMullins wont let me so there is no controversy , not even though I have trained with him previously. No biggie.

Sal i have trained at Tang Lang , Hung Gar, Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi one teacher was trained in China for 30 years. And as far as FORM goes there isnt much difference in the execution. Only small differences. Where the differences do lie is in the detail while being taught , Like opening the Kua etc and Bio Mechanics and of course applications but they are personal anyway dependent on Body type and level of understanding.
You always chime in with your derrogatory statements and try to pat yourself on the back about what you do. In an indirect way. Can you say something positive just once. I know you know your stuff but apparently you missed the class on respect and the TAO KC

No, I don't have any respect for Sin The and any of his related schools.

[Judge Pen]

No, I don't have any respect for Sin The and any of his related schools.

Sal what do you think of Mas Judt's opinion that what Sin The taught is an indonesian blend of CMA, IMA and JMA?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal what do you think of Mas Judt's opinion that what Sin The taught is an indonesian blend of CMA, IMA and JMA?

Some of it may be that, perhaps.

That's not the problem, the problem is:

1 - in a US court room he had to admit that much of the teaching material was from outside sources (books, videos).

2 - the routines (regardless of what "flavor" they had from IMA and JMA) are not taught or practiced with the proper body mechanics. Maybe it's not Sin The doing that, but the somehow the schools do that, especially if the emphasis is on learning tons of routines so that they can charge more and more money for them.

Just about every person I have seen from a Sin The associated school barely does the core body mechanics properly.

There is a correct and proper way to do core body mechanics, it's all based on how the human body functions and operates; it is not based on "that's a stylistic issue" that I often hear as an excuse.

Improper body mechanics will get you killed or maimed in a self defense situation at worse, laughed at at best.

Something is wrong with their system of plowing through routine after routine like collecting charms on a bracelet. All glitter but nothing of substance.

It's better to do the core mechanics correctly and master them completely and not know any routines.
At least that way one would be a authentic and practical martial artist.

Routines are supposed to be a means to an end, a means for practicing core mechanics with strategy.
Without a solid foundation, routines are just break dancing.

[tattooedmonk]

Some of it may be that, perhaps.

That's not the problem, the problem is:

1 - in a US court room he had to admit that much of the teaching material was from outside sources (books, videos).

Interesting , how did you come about this information?? You say outside sources, specifically books and videos , could or does this mean other teachers as well?? What court / case are you refering to??

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting , how did you come about this information?? You say outside sources, specifically books and videos , could or does this mean other teachers as well?? What court / case are you refering to??

A very long time ago, he was sued, in Kentucky, his brother testified against him actually. That's when they split off from each other and his brother went his own way. It came out that he has used books and videos to add more routines to his system. Over 20 years ago, there was articles out about this and when there was only the UseNet message boards and internet forums didn't exist yet, people had posted the transcripts of the case.

In my opinion, that explains why his routines often looked like strings of postures seen in a photograph to me, without the necessary intermediate movements that happen between the postures (which can't be shown in a book, but by a teacher).

[Judge Pen]

A very long time ago, he was sued, in Kentucky, his brother testified against him actually. That's when they split off from each other and his brother went his own way. It came out that he has used books and videos to add more routines to his system. Over 20 years ago, there was articles out about this and when there was only the UseNet message boards and internet forums didn't exist yet, people had posted the transcripts of the case.

In my opinion, that explains why his routines often looked like strings of postures seen in a photograph to me, without the necessary intermediate movements that happen between the postures (which can't be shown in a book, but by a teacher).

Since you have the state the lawsuit was brought in wrong, the rest of your information is highly suspect as well.

But since you're speaking from hearsay, so will I: my understanding is that in a discovery deposition, not trial testimony his brother testified that Sin could not claim ownership of the material because it was taught to him independantly in Indonesia. But if you have a copy of a transcript, then please share.

As far as body mechanics, I will admit that with several teachers, the quality of instruction and detail is lacking. But did you check out the videos of Garry Mullins demonstrating basic body mechanics? Please do and tell me what is lacking (and not from a stylistic point). I have sparred many different people from different styles (most of them from what you would probably consider an authentic lineage) and I've more than held my own, so I do take issue that I would get killed or laughed at in a self-defense scenario.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/stances.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video...components.mp4
http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/video/warmups.mp4

Here are those videos for easy reference.

[BoulderDawg]

The one thing that always struck with me and was the beginning of my mistrust of The' was the story of GM Ie.

One brother says he was their Grandfather. One brother says he just walked up to his school one day.

Ie is suppose to be one of the greatest masters that ever lived yet there are no pictures of the man (yet he lived in modern times) and as far as I know he had no students other than the The' brothers.

Finally there is no reason why the brothers can't agree on when the man died.

Anyway given that Sin The's story has always been this lineage past down from China he would have a hard time claiming ownership in court. The' is trying to have his cake and eat it to!

[MasterKiller]

Ie is suppose to be one of the greatest masters that ever lived yet there are no pictures of the man (yet he lived in modern times) and as far as I know he had no students other than the The' brothers.

I have some pictures of him, with another student.

[tattooedmonk]

you do realize that most of this falls on the shoulders of the Soards, right?? Much of what has been said about the man and the art has been imbelished by them , but rather than correcting the mistakes GMT let it alone.

Sometimes correcting these things is worse than just allowing them to go on.

Remember, that bad publicity is better than no publicity and it is possible that if retracted or corrected can bring about more questions and more problems than can be answered.

Most of us agree that Ie Chang Ming brought a "version" of the Shaolin Martial arts he was taught to Indonesia which was influenced by his travels and the geographical locations in which he started his Shaolin Martial Arts School.

There is nothing wrong with this per sey , but saying that it is pure and the original does have it's issues........

I believe that these ideas came about from eliminating certain aspects of the story by simplify the origins to make it more attractive to Americans and for other marketing purposes, seeing as hybridizations and MMA hadnt become all the rage yet.

We know that the forms we study are Chinese, many of them are from styles that can be found in other schools and there are some that are unique to the school.There are aspects of the teachings that have a certain "flavor" that it unique and not like CMA just like any other art that has been taken from one place and added to ad modified etc, so what??

I understand why people have issues with the school, the teachers and what not but for many these things are just not a factor. Not everyones experience has been the same...

I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

All of the superficial things that everyone talks about real dont matter at all, if you like it do it , if you dont then dont do it....... its as simple as that .

Hey Sal,

I know you are every knowledgeable about CMA and it's history, but knocking other peoples styles/ systems when you have so much going for you seems to be counter productive and makes you look less than you are, I dont see what purpose it serves.

I am sure if we looked into your backround and look at what you have done we could find things to ride you about...but we dont

[BoulderDawg]

I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

What changes? I haven't seen or heard of any changes in the way the program is administered.

[tattooedmonk]

What changes? I seen or heard of any changes in the way the program is administered.

Have you ever been to any of the schools that are not run by the Soards?? How about the New Independant Schools??

[BoulderDawg]

Have you ever been to any of the schools that are not run by the Soards?? How about the New Independant Schools??

That's just the difference in personel running the school.

As far as I know the material one has to do to advance is pretty much the same throughout the system. Of course it's taught a lot differently (better or worse) between the schools but it's still the same stuff they were all doing 20-30 years ago. What's changed?

[tattooedmonk]

That's just the difference in personel running the school.

As far as I know the material one has to do to advance is pretty much the same throughout the system. Of course it's taught a lot differently (better or worse) between the schools but it's still the same stuff they were all doing 20-30 years ago. What's changed?

Because although the material is the same not everyone is trying to force you to learn it fast and test without knowing the what , where , when , how and why, etc.

Other schools have better business models and instructor / masters as well as students who take it more seriously....

Just because someone puts a whole lot of food on your plate doesnt mean you have to eat it all.....

Basically if you feel that all you need is up to blue blelt material then have enough common sense to stop there and perfect what you already have ...

I would rather have a bad @$$ blue belt than a $H!TTY brown or black belt.

I think 6 month minimum for each of the lower belt levels should be implimented as well as being able to the material on both sides of the body.

[BoulderDawg]

Because although the material is the same not everyone is trying to force you to learn it fast and test without knowing the what , where , when , how and why, etc.

That hardly speaks to a "new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now".

That tells me more of a story of pis poor instructors and quality control.

Mullins and Grooms run their schools better than the Soards but I don't see The' doing anything to help the students in the Soard schools.

Anyway you're going to have good and bad instructors in every organization. Improving the quality of instruction does not represent change and certainly not revolution.