View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13336
    Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

    I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.

  2. #13337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    But that not true at all, that's not what happened.
    Traditional Yang was always the thing to learn.

    He became a major promoter of Taiji Quan in the USA and outside of Taiwan. In Taiwan he wasn't considered any good except by his own students and people had proved that he only has spent a very short amount of time learning, if at all, from Yang Chengfu himself.

    His books, yes, had very good insight to the workings of taichi, and his personal style of taiji quan was effective when he used it. But it wasn't exactly what he taught others and since he was one of the first people teaching Taiji Quan in the USA that what made it get so popular mostly. You had to take what he did and said and make it your own (by learning more TJQ elsewhere and combining things) for it to be of any use. Most average people that learn this style are pretty weak and aweful for the most part in comparison to people that do standard Yang family Taiji Quan.

    In China, you could never say "most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor", that would make no sense and be completely outside of the facts. Only in the USa would that be true, if that.
    Traditional Yang stylists wouldn't be doing his style at all, and he didn't get known until the 1950s in the USA and his form didn't get popular here till the late 60s.
    I put QUOTES around the word YANG because I feel much of todays Tai Chi is a *******ized form of Yang. So I agree but did GMTh'e say it was CMC or not Baqualin???? KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #13338
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    I put QUOTES around the word YANG because I feel much of todays Tai Chi is a *******ized form of Yang. So I agree but did GMTh'e say it was CMC or not Baqualin???? KC
    Never ask him....there's no doubt in my mind that it's CMC's FORM.......my training on the form and how to apply it is GMS's and that's all I care about...it's well known that 24 & Chen Tai Chi fan he picked up from colleges in Indonesia.....tracing forms back to the person who originated it is not downing grading the system in any way.....everything had to come from someone.
    BQ

  4. #13339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Long fist isn't necessarily external, it's very internal, that's why you learn it first before Taiji, it's that it expands the body, and builds strength, etc., things that you would want a pre-teen and teen to develop.

    Long fist being stuff like Taizu Chang Quan, Mizong Quan, Tongbei Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, etc. Just about every famous old time master learned one of these first.

    Here's one thing I wonder about SD curriculum.
    As far as it's Northern CMA material, how come I have never heard of anyone teaching the preliminary routines and qi gong sets that you must learn first before doing the more public and well known sets?
    All I have ever seen is routines being taught that are the well known public ones.

    There's a lot of material that has to be learned first in order to build a solid foundation for doing efficient and effective northern Chinese martial arts, such as Shaolin. Where are they?

    That's how come I kept saying the mechanics are off, without these foundational routines and qigong sets, none of the later routines make real sense to a person.
    The main qi gong sets we learn are the Live / Dead Animal training.
    BQ

  5. #13340
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    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

    I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.
    If the 8 animal from DR. Painter is the same as Jerry Allen Johnson's set it's not the same as ours...I have yet to find it.
    BQ

  6. #13341
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    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    Sal, thanks for the input. I've always wondered where that 8 animal sequence came from. I'm trying to find a clip somewhere of J. Painter doing it so I can compare. I have a number of his videos that show combat applications that don't have much resemblance to the animal form, but that may be because the videos are from a later time where Painter was concentrating on his 9 dragon system. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on Painter and Frantzis.

    I'd agree with you on the combat prowess of most practitioners of the CMC style. My impression is that CMC was so good at sensitivity, yielding, balance control, and yielding that he rarely had to resort to anything else. I think his students in the US misinterpreted his emphasis on relaxation, and made relaxation the primary focus, with far less emphasis on body mechanics and structure. The result was practitioners that did the form like spaghetti that's been boiled for an hour...limp and relaxed, but completely lacking in substance.
    Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, it is not Painter that promotes 8 Animals Bagua, it is Jerry Alan Johnson, from the 1970s.
    Here's some YouTube videos you can check out of his old lectures:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFxdk_X1uIU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ_Lj5p3iMA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9802RoPeJM

    There a lot more there too, you can find the links.
    Check it out and let me know how it compares to the SD 8 Animals Bagua, I'm curious.

    I don't have anything to say about Painter, I never had any interaction.
    Frantzis, I have known a long time, since when he first came back to NYC after leaving China for good. I took all his seminars that he gave way back then, those were his first seminars. In person, I have always found him and he martial art ability and knowledge to be amazing. Regardless of his personality that some take offense with, he knows his stuff, can do amazing things, and he leaves you in awe, at least back then. Nowadays, he been in a few car accidents (as passenger) and is having a hard time with mobility.
    But, he knows his stuff, just one talk with him is like a year's worth of instruction.
    Learning with him in his seminars was immensely illuminating. Whether it is qigong, TJQ, XY, BG, Long Fist, any interaction with Frantzis was well worth it.

    Agree with your second statement about modern day CMC TJQ players, limp is the word.

  7. #13342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Long fist isn't necessarily external, it's very internal, that's why you learn it first before Taiji, it's that it expands the body, and builds strength, etc., things that you would want a pre-teen and teen to develop.

    Long fist being stuff like Taizu Chang Quan, Mizong Quan, Tongbei Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan, etc. Just about every famous old time master learned one of these first.

    Here's one thing I wonder about SD curriculum.
    As far as it's Northern CMA material, how come I have never heard of anyone teaching the preliminary routines and qi gong sets that you must learn first before doing the more public and well known sets?
    All I have ever seen is routines being taught that are the well known public ones.

    There's a lot of material that has to be learned first in order to build a solid foundation for doing efficient and effective northern Chinese martial arts, such as Shaolin. Where are they?

    That's how come I kept saying the mechanics are off, without these foundational routines and qigong sets, none of the later routines make real sense to a person.
    It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning. later, hou tian qi breathing methods and meditation postures were presented in a yearly or twice yearly class. Five animal play and xian tian qi were taught after about 1.5/2 years, again only as a special class taught once or twice a year. The real preliminary material for the long forms, I feel, is the 30 short forms, which are taught from day one. The short forms are longfist-like patterns of 2-6 techniques each that move in a straight line forward and back, mostly closed fist hands techniques. This is where the traditional stances are learned, long low stances are emphasized for stretching and strengthening. The techniques from the short forms are found in some of the forms learned later on, like jie quan. Along with the 30 forms, there are some very short routines taught like si men tao lian, fei hu chu dong, tai peng shen quan, and luohan quan (which is not anything like the shaolin ones, it is a very short preliminary mantis form).

    After these, some forms more moderate in length and difficulty are taught. san he quan, which is a fukien-style sanzhan-like form. Three forms called white crane circles wings, white crane jabs wings, white crane circles legs (which might really all be one form). These have some fukien-like elements, but are not like any of the fukien white crane styles I've seen. They include ground techniques, rolling and drop kick/ground sweeps.

    Then there are the three bird forms. These have longfist-like elements from the , such as the long stances and straight leg kicks, but most of the hand techniques are open hand finger and palms, and there are some southern-like elements, such as a sequence using the three battle stance from san he quan.

    Then comes jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu quan, which I feel are closest in style to the type of northern longfist forms practiced in Taiwan. I know jie quan is a form used by chin woo, and maybe all three of these came from a chin woo someplace before they ended up in Bandung in the 1950s.

    After this, comes the black tiger forms, black tiger rips the heart, BT turns the body, BT flips the body, and BT suffering wounds. These forms use loose whipping power with mostly open hands/palms. They are also quite athletic, with cartwheels, rolls and drops and kicking/sweeping and grabbing from the ground.

    The the taijiquan 37 form is taught, or emphasized at this time (it may have been learned earlier on in a special class)

    After these forms, baguazhang practice begins with the "original" form of jiang rong qiao (though he is not given credit or mentioned at all, don't think amny people know/realize this). After baguazhang comes xingyiquan with five roads, linkage form, 12 animals, and then a two person set combining the elements and animals. Also at this time the five animal play qi gong is emphasized, required material for testing along with the xingyiquan.

    After the xingyiquan come a group of unrelated forms from various styles, a mantis form simply called "tang lang quan" which has tons of kicks and some rolling/ground attack, the hung gar-like tiger crane double form, and four roads of hua quan. After this is the drunken eight immortals system, one form for each immortal, as well as the hung sing choy li fut version of the five animal form (or one extremely similar to that).

    After that, come more internal forms, the chen 83 posture old frame form, 8 animal baguazhang, and some other stuff I'm not sure about.
    What comes after that, I don't know, if there is a formal curriculum for that stage.

    At all levels, there are various weapon forms being taught along with the empty hand forms...different staff forms, short stick, dao, jian, spear, guan dao, chain whip, tiger hook swords, daggers

    The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  8. #13343
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    I am not saying SD is downgrading the form I just dont see the complete connection. I feel the form has changed so much most not all Tai Chi is similar. I want to learn the Yang 108 form. myself. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  9. #13344
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    5th BB, Li Ti Kuai, 8 animal pakua, Twin Tiger Jian, Chen Tai Chi, Her Shan Ku, Shang Chung Li, 5 animal Fist, Li Kuai Axes, Drunken Spear, Lan Chai Her,Cha Ka Chu. Should be 5 of the 8 immortals and others listed. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #13345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning.....blah...blah...blah.... The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.
    I demonstrate the beginner material every time I help students learn it...LOL...but they're not visually impressive sets, so if I were to vid them and show them off, they'd be visually unimpressive. I imagine that's the reason they're not often "shown off". Then agian, I think "Tan Tui" is pretty visually unimpressive even in a Chinese "Master's" hands.

    As for SD/Northern Shaolin---it is Northern Shaolin. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, Sd or not, but it is Northern Shaolin. Are they Northern Shaolin "Forms" as in---what you'll learn from a wushu competition or from a traditional Longfist DVD or whatever? No. But hte techniques are hte same. The movements are the same. The forms are just, well, not "aesthetically trimmed" quite the same or patterned on the same progression of footsteps. SD has its own unique method of teaching that material--some good innovations, some bad ones. You'll only ever know which is which if you try Northern Shaolin and Shaolin-Do.

    I've studied Northern Shaolin with a Wushu coach--Longfist--long enough to learn 1 1/2 sets (just under a year), and I've been to a couple of schools claiming to teach Northern Shaolin. Only, SD doesn't teach Northern Shaolin the way Northern Shaolin is taught elsewhere. SD breaks it up, teaches how to throw some heavy duty punches, some sanshou sweeps, etc., and does more conditioning early on. So yeah, it's karatified because it's based on kicking ass. I'm not dissing Northern Shaolin, but ****, no school I went to had a heavy bag in the building and the workouts were paced for geriatrics. SD doesn't do "Tan Tui" or such sets posture for posture, but I guarantee, from experience, that they're just about equivalent. While I do prefer the polish and such of Northern Shaolin to SD, and still I think the Short forms of SD are far superior in application.

    You can call me biased, but I'm a pretty hardy critic of both. Honestly, the difference is this: if you want to be able to do the sets you see on kung fu DVD's or in the movies, you can learn those in NS. If you just want to be able to defend yourself using NS techniques, you can do that with SD. Granted, not all SD people can do this. But then, many NS practitioners are out of shape, poorly conditioned, and can't fight worth crap because the principles taught by "Chinese" methods are ****-poor methods for self-defense. SD has some ****-poor theories, too. It's like Ying-Yang, in a way. Most CMA I've seen is incredibly effiminate [Ying-Yang theory or not], and much of SD lacks a dose of reality.

    But if you man up, dispense with dancing, and smack yourself across the cheek, you can learn some valuable stuff from either. Personally--and this is the reason I stuck with SD over Northern Shaolin--I think you'd have a better shot at "martial" artistry with SD.

    As for breathing exercises, qi gong and such, the answer is simple. In Lohan Quan, all 3 cranes, all 3 birds, and all 3 Brown belt tigers, the Qi Gong is at the beginning and end of every form. It's built into the form. I see a lot of newbies and some senior guys rocket through those parts, but they were taught as Qigong when I learned them. Every student has to pass through extensive Meditation/Breathing at black belt level, and GM The' asserts that meditation is the foundation of our art. I get what GM The' means, but I'd contend Chin-na is the foundation of the "martial" part of our art. Our Chin-na is really nasty. Studying BJJ didn't diminish my respect for SD's chin-na. In fact, it strengthened it and helped me a lot in takedowns, locks, etc. that are illegal in BJJ, but make a nasty, nasty combination with it to counter takedowns.

    In other words, this whole thread is r-tarded and pointless.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-30-2009 at 09:36 PM.

  11. #13346
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    As for the whole nomenclature game: what's external and what's internal...that's only valuable if you read kung-fu books or you're trying to explain kung fu to beginners, or fronting like a yuppie "master in the hills".

    There's punching, kicking, chin-na, wrestling, and meditation--which in China, stripped of its useless metaphysical theory [viz. useless when you're getting your ass kicked] is really just controlled breathing and self-control [viz. patience].

    I think the internal/external thing is pretty ****ed r-tarded nowadays. You're either into meditation or you're into both meditation and fighting. I say that because conditioning is actually the strongest form of meditation, and assists in sitting meditation. Qigong without a good jab, cross, hook, or roundhouse is like a bullet without a gun.

  12. #13347
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    That's not true at all, every school or teacher I learned with since 1975 had taught self defense and being able to fight with all the material, from day one, including using the qi gong and stretching warm up movements for self defense and so on.

    And in my 50 years of traveling all over the world many times with my band, I have used Northern style Chinese martial arts every time and was able to squash the attacker very fast and with ease.

    Anything is good if you make it good. Not only does the cream rise to the top but so does the c r a p, so it is up to you to open your eyes and ears and mind and learn what's real self defense.

    I've never been to a CMA school that didn't teach how to kick a s s, maybe you know the crummy ones and I've just been lucky.

    I've had people visit from the internet forums and they have posted that I punch has hard as a mule and so on, not saying that to brag, but to say that all the traditional stuff I have ever learned has never failed me.

    Plus, there is a lot more than the routines that you see on DVDs or so on.

    The foundation sets I was taking about aren't "beginner" sets that you walk through, like Wu Bu Quan and Tan Tui and so on.

    I mean full fledged routines that each posture and movement teaches the important things that make your KF more efficient and effective in use. They teach why you need to do things.
    Chuan Yuan Quan, Taizu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, 18 Luohan Shou, and so on are way way way past beginner level but they are foundational routines. They support all the future routines one learns. Hence, you learn them first, and before them you learn qigong sets that are used for self defense, not just for breathing excercises.

    I've taught many people from Karate and Taekowndo black belt ranks and they always comment on how the early foundational KF they were learning was already way past what they learned as black belts. They saw that kicking and punching was just scratching the surface of the art, that CMA was showing them how to use their whole body as a weapon, not only including their whole body's surface area, but using the act of walking and moving naturally as a weapon of self defense.

    At least's that been my experience, other's, oh, well, better luck next time.
    I think that the best saying is always "When the student is ready, the teacher arrives".
    If you aren't looking, in the right place at the right time, you miss your chance.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-30-2009 at 09:54 PM.

  13. #13348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    I demonstrate the beginner material every time I help students learn it...LOL...but they're not visually impressive sets, so if I were to vid them and show them off, they'd be visually unimpressive. I imagine that's the reason they're not often "shown off". Then agian, I think "Tan Tui" is pretty visually unimpressive even in a Chinese "Master's" hands.
    I dunno, this Tan Tui looks pretty good to me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4

    As for SD/Northern Shaolin---it is Northern Shaolin. I know this is a hard concept for people to grasp, Sd or not, but it is Northern Shaolin. Are they Northern Shaolin "Forms" as in---what you'll learn from a wushu competition or from a traditional Longfist DVD or whatever? No. But hte techniques are hte same. The movements are the same. The forms are just, well, not "aesthetically trimmed" quite the same or patterned on the same progression of footsteps. SD has its own unique method of teaching that material--some good innovations, some bad ones. You'll only ever know which is which if you try Northern Shaolin and Shaolin-Do.

    I've studied Northern Shaolin with a Wushu coach--Longfist--long enough to learn 1 1/2 sets (just under a year), and I've been to a couple of schools claiming to teach Northern Shaolin. Only, SD doesn't teach Northern Shaolin the way Northern Shaolin is taught elsewhere. SD breaks it up, teaches how to throw some heavy duty punches, some sanshou sweeps, etc., and does more conditioning early on. So yeah, it's karatified because it's based on kicking ass. I'm not dissing Northern Shaolin, but ****, no school I went to had a heavy bag in the building and the workouts were paced for geriatrics. SD doesn't do "Tan Tui" or such sets posture for posture, but I guarantee, from experience, that they're just about equivalent. While I do prefer the polish and such of Northern Shaolin to SD, and still I think the Short forms of SD are far superior in application.

    You can call me biased, but I'm a pretty hardy critic of both. Honestly, the difference is this: if you want to be able to do the sets you see on kung fu DVD's or in the movies, you can learn those in NS. If you just want to be able to defend yourself using NS techniques, you can do that with SD. Granted, not all SD people can do this. But then, many NS practitioners are out of shape, poorly conditioned, and can't fight worth crap because the principles taught by "Chinese" methods are ****-poor methods for self-defense. SD has some ****-poor theories, too. It's like Ying-Yang, in a way. Most CMA I've seen is incredibly effiminate [Ying-Yang theory or not], and much of SD lacks a dose of reality.

    But if you man up, dispense with dancing, and smack yourself across the cheek, you can learn some valuable stuff from either. Personally--and this is the reason I stuck with SD over Northern Shaolin--I think you'd have a better shot at "martial" artistry with SD.
    Traditional Long Fist isn't wushu, wookie. Heck, it's not even pretty.
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  14. #13349
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    Northern "Shaolin" Wushu as in modern chinese government sanctioned wushu routines created by committee?

    Umm, that's not Traditional Northern Shaolin, whatsoever, it's just nice sets to do at competitions.
    Modern wushu is not used for self defense.

    Like comparing apples and oranges.

  15. #13350
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    Thumbs down

    As a life-long Northern Shaolin practitioner, I gotta say wookie - that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to BSL/NS, etc. I am no fan of Shaolin-Do, however I won't try to go on about this or that of it, because by not being a practitioner, I don't have the right. Defending your system is fine and expected, but don't speak on what you don't know please.
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


    http://www.pathsatlanta.org

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