White Tiger Kung Fu ?

[Hardwork108]

That is why you should STFU about Strength training with weights, period.
Why?
This i s why:


You can't say this is true because YOU DON'T KNOW anything about "weight training".

I know about the Chow Gar methodology. If you think that the masters who developed this style (which you don't know anything about) just made up the facts as they went along, then please be kind enough to make your above comments in an email addressed to David Ip, because that is whom your insults are ultimately aimed at and not me!

All I can say is that the methodology exists in Chow Gar and probably in other related styles such as Pak Mei, Dragon, etc. I have also provided you with a link to a grand master of Baguazhang who also did not use (Olympic?) weight training.

Send an email to him, as well, while you are at it......

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know about the Chow Gar methodology. If you think that the masters who developed this style (which you don't know anything about) just made up the facts as they went along, then please be kind enough to make your above comments in an email addressed to David Ip, because that is whom your insults are ultimately aimed at and not me!

All I can say is that the methodology exists in Chow Gar and probably in other related styles such as Pak Mei, Dragon, etc. I have also provided you with a link to a grand master of Baguazhang who also did not use (Olympic?) weight training.

Send an email to him, as well, while you are at it......

You MAY know some of them (ITCMA/Chow Ga Kung's/Chongs), but you don't know ANY of the classical or even typical ST methodologies so you can't compare.
As for David, his posts show that he is not familiar with classical or even modern ST methodologies and THAT was what was criticized.

[TAO YIN]

Hardwork108,

They are Gong Fu experts anyways...They work hard! Do you work as hard at your Gong Fu as Brock Lesnar does at his?

You are contradicting yourself with the mindset bit. If it is because of Fedor's MINDSET, then he is combining the 3 internal aspects of Chi Gung, for fighting.

MMA people being crosstrainers just makes them better fighters. You say that they won't be experts. Why? They have the bodies for it and the mind for it?

They might not be experts in all of that higher level stuff now. But if they happened to continue training it for a while they could be. Do you think that these guys don't have Chi or something?

ABOUT THE PALM ISSUE...Look at it this way. How would you beat Fedor? How would you beat Lesnar? Here are two guys that outweigh people by up to 100 pnds. AND they are freakish fighters who have a great many tools in their arsenal. HOW WOULD YOU BEAT THEM??? Assuming they also have fighting skills, how would you fight someone like Magnusson, or other some such Strongman?

This higher level kind of training, this Chi Projection, Dim Mak stuff, this sealing the veins, arteries, bloodflow, white blood cells, platelets, plasma, ETC... and the berserker internal intent that you are supposed to train with it for fighting...That would be your best bet at first...Good luck with that, on the ground...

For that kind of fight, you better figure out a way to train all of your hits so that, all of your natural kinematics, all of your adrenaline, and every muscle, tendon, bone, and whatever in your body, IS ALL WORKING together, all with a MINDEST from the depths of hell. AND, train this kind of thing everyday for a long time. This would be your best bet for standing up with these guys. THERE might be a few handful of schools on earth that train this way...

I SAY THAT, especially for people who do not train like Olympians. Which by the way I wasn't looking at your reference to whatever kind of weight training. I mean, if you train like an olympic athelete you might get somewhere. But an olympic atheletes will get somewhere. Fedor, Lesnar, whoever...These guys are the olympic atheletes of the fight world. If you are not training your Gong Fu like these guys train theirs, how are you going to compete with them on any kind of level involving combat?

THe money aspect, the trophies and that, that is just a cop out. Go to China and see how many Kung Fu masters will teach you for free.

I am sure that somewhere exits underground kung fu, practice by insane sociopathic killers, who never have sex, eat, breathe, and sleep death, and practice chi projection exercises all day...Can crack boulders in water from a quarter inch away, and that. But they are not that easily found. Hell, on youtube somewhere there is a vid of a monk doing a brick break where the 4 bricks are on top of a boulder flat. Now, if he can really do this and those are real bricks, then yeah, he could slap a person and their insides would be completely farked assuming he can fight with them. And so on...

[Hardwork108]

You MAY know some of them (ITCMA/Chow Ga Kung's/Chongs),

I never said that I know all of them. I just said that I know more than you!!!

but you don't know ANY of the classical or even typical ST methodologies so you can't compare.

I know some those too as they cross over to the "some of" the gungs that I know.

If you are talking about me comparing the ITCMA stuff with Olympic weight lifting methodologies then I will say again, I am not necessarily comparing them.

I am saying that from Traditional Chow Gar strength building point of view, they are unnecessary and even "harmful" to the results that you are trying to achieve. To make any sense of that statement you and others need to understand some of the Internal principles involved!

If you have problems with the above statements then take it up with the lineage heads of that style. Feel free to accuse them of belonging to cults or being cult leaders...

As for David, his posts show that he is not familiar with classical or even modern ST methodologies and THAT was what was criticized.

Both of us know that the above is not the complete truth. Both of us know that it was more than just criticism of his lack of knowledge regarding modern weight lifting, as the people who criticized him were completely clueless regarding the ITCMA methodology in question and no one even came close to showing any comprehension of strength and power building methodologies that do not involve weights!

Again, these methodologies exist in Hsing I, Baguazhang, and I would assume styles such as Pak Mei and Dragon, that in some ways are related to Chow Gar and share common (and not so common) principles.

I have mentioned before as well that the Wing Chun I trained did not use weight training for its strength building either. Of course, its ST methodology was very different to that of Chow Gar.

You say that you have met my sifu, did he look like an unfit weakling to you?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

omfg.

HW108: your methodological "rivals" have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY stated that they are not arguing against Chow Gar methodology. Why do you keep thinking that they are? They are not saying that certain types of strength training are better than others, they are saying that different activities require different types of strength training (including weights if NECESSARY) for optimal performance. The flip side of this statement is that training the wrong type of strength training for your activity will hinder your performance and perhaps even cause injury. No one is denying this. People are simply questioning your gullibility, credibility and sociability in general, not your claimed methodologies. The methodology is being called into question not because of itself, but because of you.

Also, regarding your advice on what you consider NOT to be an "authentic kung fu school":

1. The instructor bragging about the number of competition medals his school has won, from word go.

2. If he is made to spar from day one.

3. If his instructor claims to have invented an improved and "functional" style of kung fu.

4. If he is told that this is a purely external school of TCMA or that the Internals don't exist.

Alright, so:

1. if you (HW108) are looking specifically to learn fighting skills, how would you judge the teacher's knowledge and experience on the subject? Or, if you're not looking to learn how to fight, what is it you're looking for in Kung Fu, exactly?

2. When should sparring be introduced?

3. What is Kung Fu in YOUR mind?

[taai gihk yahn]

If you are talking about me comparing the ITCMA stuff with Olympic weight lifting methodologies then I will say again, I am not necessarily comparing them.
I am saying that from Traditional Chow Gar strength building point of view, they are unnecessary and even "harmful" to the results that you are trying to achieve. To make any sense of that statement you and others need to understand some of the Internal principles involved!

I do not intend to be polemical, but by that logic, it would seem that one would need to have equal knowledge of both CG and WT to be able to make that claim: that is, to say WT is harmful to the development of CG skill, if one knew only CG, then one could not truly say with certainty what the impact of WT would be; one could only make assumptions based on one's external assessment of WT

of course if you know only CG, you could certainly validly make a claim that training it can produce strength increase without use of WT - it may or may not be true objectively, but since one is only talking about CG, one is not making claims outside of one's area of knowledge; but that would really be all one could say; not having engaged in WT, one really has no way of being certain of what possible effects it could have on one's CG skill: one doesn't know if it would improve it, have no impact, or cause it to diminish;

to say otherwise, would be as erroneous as WTers making any statements about CG training without having done it;

I mean, do you actually know anyone who has trained in CG then gone and done WT and it had a negative effect? or is it just because your sifu said that it would? if the latter, why do you accept this without evidence?

and bear in mind that there are many different way of WT, as there are different CG schools, so to generalize to either would be imprudent...

I think that one needs to critically assess statements of this sort: anytime one group engaged in a given set of activity proscribes another type of activity, one has to discern very keenly as to the rationale behind it;

[Hardwork108]

Part 1

[Sorry for long post]

Hardwork108,

They are Gong Fu experts anyways...They work hard! Do you work as hard at your Gong Fu as Brock Lesnar does at his?

You are using the "hard work" definition of kung fu. In that case the chef in my favorite restaurant has better kung fu than Brock Lesnar.

When I talk about kung fu my definition is that of a given or given TCMA styles.

TAO YIN]You are contradicting yourself with the mindset bit. If it is because of Fedor's MINDSET, then he is combining the 3 internal aspects of Chi Gung, for fighting.

Perhaps the chef in my favorite restaurant is a secret qigong expert as well?

He can combine all the Qigong "aspects" that he wants but if he doesn't practice them and has not learned them from qualified qigong sifus then he is not doing qigong.

MMA people being crosstrainers just makes them better fighters. You say that they won't be experts. Why? They have the bodies for it and the mind for it?

Then would you call a ballet dancer who can fight a kung fu expert?

TCMAs are arts with their distinct principles and concepts. Some of these are visible to the naked eye and others are more subtle. Then there are even aspects that are very subtle to say the least.

What I am trying to respectfully say is that being a good ring fighter does not automatically make one a TCMA-ist.

Of course you can look at them using the general definition of kung fu and say that they "have good kung fu" but then you can do that with the chef in my favorite restaurant or a good Tae Kwon Do expert.

Of course, we know that TKD experts are not kung fu experts, even if a couple of them in this forum think so...LOL!

They might not be experts in all of that higher level stuff now. But if they happened to continue training it for a while they could be.

One does not get the higher level stuff by training Muay Thai and BJJ!

One has to train with knowledgeble sifus and stick to principles regarding breathing, posture, mind techniques to name a few.

Do you think that these guys don't have Chi or something?

Every body has Chi, even the chef in my favorite restaurant.

Also, Internal training on some levels has other emphasis.

ABOUT THE PALM ISSUE...Look at it this way. How would you beat Fedor? How would you beat Lesnar? Here are two guys that outweigh people by up to 100 pnds. AND they are freakish fighters who have a great many tools in their arsenal. HOW WOULD YOU BEAT THEM??? Assuming they also have fighting skills, how would you fight someone like Magnusson, or other some such Strongman?

Believe me I have never thought of fighting sports fighters. I find what they do entertaining and I respect their skills.

However, if I had to fight them then I would not do it in the ring to start with.

As far as Palm strikes are concerned some Internalists see them as more powerful than closed fist punching. Why? What factors are there that the externalists are missing? Are these masters crazy when they show preference for palm strikes when they themselves have trained fists and palms for decades?

As far as my Mainland Chinese Wing Chun training is concerned, I have been led to understand that when one improves his internals and moves up in the system he wll start using more and more open hand strikes.

My understanding of BaguaZhang is that at least some lineages use mainly palm strikes. Why?

Suffice to say that this is an important area of study for those who are interested researching the internals.

This higher level kind of training, this Chi Projection, Dim Mak stuff, this sealing the veins, arteries, bloodflow, white blood cells, platelets, plasma, ETC... and the berserker internal intent that you are supposed to train with it for fighting...That would be your best bet at first...Good luck with that, on the ground...

There are TCMA styles that have ground fighting training in their curriculum. The WC that I trained ground fighting practice as part of its TRADITIONAL curriculum. I never got to that level as I had to move countries, but the ground fighting training based on WC prinicples was there. Other TCMAs have them too.

There are TCMAs that evidently don't have ground fighting training in their traditional curriculum, but they have provisions for such a scenario. Try taking down someone who practices a TCMA style that sees strikes that are made from longer than 7 inch range as weak, and or a style such as Chow Gar that develops the close range Shock Power, which has nothing to do with WC one inch punch methodology!

It is also important to note that wrestling styles were practiced in China, even before the development of kung fu and were practiced during the development of the various kung fu styles. Actually, wrestling is still practiced in China.

So for some to assume that kung fu styles developed during times of war, revolution, turmoil and later on gangster activity, somehow overlooked the possibility of a fight going to the ground, is just laughable...LOL

IMHO, it is how well one trains arts such as above that will dictate an outcome of a fight rather than cross training in every MA style under the sun for some imaginary "just in case" scenario....

Of course, most "Mcdonald" kung fu schools will not be training most such (and other) aspects within a given style of kung fu. Keeping that fact in mind, one cannot really blame a lot of people for cross training their McKung fu with other arts as it makes a lot of sense.

What does not make sense is the fact these cross training Mckung fu-ists coming to forums such as these and enlightening us to their perceived weakesses of Kung fu, an art(s) whose surfaces they have hardly scratched.

[Hardwork108]

PART 2

For that kind of fight, you better figure out a way to train all of your hits so that, all of your natural kinematics, all of your adrenaline, and every muscle, tendon, bone, and whatever in your body, IS ALL WORKING together,

That is how kung fu is supposed to be trained and was long before people invented the UFCs.

The exception would be the adrenaline thing, at least from a higher level Internal kung fu point of view. My understanding is that this is where one avoids the adrenalin rush hence avoids the modern, "use your anger or fear to fight, survive etc.

Itis not an easy task but that is part of what the internal training including some qigong and meditation is all about. It is about not feeling fear, anger and hate, not any emotion. You just "ARE" and you just do what needs to be done!

all with a MINDEST from the depths of hell.

Technically speaking most traditional mindset is to KILL!

But again, the practitioner of the higher level stuff just "IS".

AND, train this kind of thing everyday for a long time. This would be your best bet for standing up with these guys. THERE might be a few handful of schools on earth that train this way...

Traditionally that is how kung fu was meant to be trained. Not an easy task nowadays.

I SAY THAT, especially for people who do not train like Olympians. Which by the way I wasn't looking at your reference to whatever kind of weight training. I mean, if you train like an olympic athelete you might get somewhere. But an olympic atheletes will get somewhere. Fedor, Lesnar, whoever...These guys are the olympic atheletes of the fight world. If you are not training your Gong Fu like these guys train theirs, how are you going to compete with them on any kind of level involving combat?

I appreciate the fact that if you are going to fight them in the ring then you would need to adopt some of your training. However, if one is lucky enough to have an authentic combat oriented kung fu master who teaches a given style in the way it was meant to be trained and if one is dedicated and trains, lets say 6 days a week, then he would have a good chance in a STREET fight against any of those guys.

I made the above statement based on what I have seen of traditional kung fu "technology". Others may disagree but then these are discussion boards.

THe money aspect, the trophies and that, that is just a cop out. Go to China and see how many Kung Fu masters will teach you for free.

My WC sifu would charge a fixed fee and less if the student was not financially well. My Chow Gar teacher would charge an absurdly low amount for the stuff he was teaching.

The MMA is big business so they need to create their own myths. Of course, many kung fu franchises have created myths to make make money as well. No arguments from me there.

I am sure that somewhere exits underground kung fu, practice by insane sociopathic killers, who never have sex, eat, breathe, and sleep death, and practice chi projection exercises all day...Can crack boulders in water from a quarter inch away, and that.

First of all, I would not call them sociopaths.

Secondly, who would your money be on in a STREET fight between one of them and a MMA champion?

But they are not that easily found.

That is the point I am making. What makes them different is not their fanaticism. Many MMA fighters are fantics as well. That is how they get that good.

However, what makes these TCMA-ists that you mention, different is the fact that (as you, yourself may be implying) they have access to knowledge, hence have knowledge, that is not in the public domain.

Hell, on youtube somewhere there is a vid of a monk doing a brick break where the 4 bricks are on top of a boulder flat. Now, if he can really do this and those are real bricks, then yeah, he could slap a person and their insides would be completely farked assuming he can fight with them. And so on...

I have not seen that video, I will look for it. Yes, someone like that could hurt people.

Based on what you said, let me just add that there seems to be a flawed logic (based on their self defense mechanism because of their insecurity) by the cross training MMA-ists here in the forums, well at least some of them, who when they see a TCMA-ist use incredible power to break solid objects, they automatically assume that he cannot use it in fighting. Their logic states that if you have Iron Palm skills then you will lack combat training. I have never figured this logic out?

Anyway, I hope that this makes my views clearer.

[Hardwork108]

omfg.

HW108: your methodological "rivals" have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY stated that they are not arguing against Chow Gar methodology.

They may not be arguing about it now but they were before!

They are not saying that certain types of strength training are better than others, they are saying that different activities require different types of strength training (including weights if NECESSARY) for optimal performance.

If they are saying the above, then I would be the first to agree with them!

The flip side of this statement is that training the wrong type of strength training for your activity will hinder your performance and perhaps even cause injury. No one is denying this.

Looking at the thread in quesion, the general feel was that if you don't use weight training then you are missing something. Why don't you go to the Dynamic Tension in Forms, thread and see.

After all when I said that the particular Chow Gar methodology does not use weight training for strength and power development I had my Olympic weight training credentials questioned...LOL. Why do you think that was?

I was repeatedly told that TCMAs had used weight training as part of their power strength building methodology for centuries, eventhough I had made it clear that I knew and agreed with this. Why do you think, they kept repeating it?

Wasn't it because in their clueless minds they thought there was something wrong with strength building methodology if it did not use weights? And wasn't this a reflexion of their view of the CHOW GAR methodology?

People are simply questioning your gullibility,

You are contradicting yourself. Am I gullible if I say that Chow Gar methodology does not use weight training for strength building? How pompous are these people?

credibility

They are questioning my "credibility" regarding a a style that they do not practice and a methodology that they are clueless about? LOL!

I even provided a Baguazhang link where the interviewed master mentions that he does not do such training!!!

and sociability in general,

Hey, I call it the way I see it. Too many of the clueless Forum Gods here give the wrong advice as regards the TCMAs. I believe that the TCMAs are in the mess they are in partially because of the "lost in the woods" approach and advice of the Jack of All Trades "experts", here and in the world in general.

So I do not have time for polite diplomacy with some of these characters.

Also, if they don't know about a certain methodology then they should say so. That is a rarity in this forum. None of these guys will ever say, "hey I don't know this or that"....they will just wiggle their way out of a situation by diverting attention with irrelevant questions or thinly disguised insults!

If you have not noticed, then I will tell you, none of these "experts" has come out and said that they are unfamiliar with this methodlogy NONE!!!, ...LOL

Their egos are just too big!

not your claimed methodologies. The methodology is being called into question not because of itself, but because of you.

Yes, shoot the messenger....

1. if you (HW108) are looking specifically to learn fighting skills, how would you judge the teacher's knowledge and experience on the subject?

I have been lucky enough to train with sifus who have had fighting experience and taught with combat effectiveness in mind. They would call fantasy in TCMAs whenever and wherever they saw it. I learned a lot from them and that helps me "judge" any school or sifu I come into contact with.

Or, if you're not looking to learn how to fight, what is it you're looking for in Kung Fu, exactly?

My primary reason for learning kung fu is for gaining fighting abilities. Other reasons include health, both physical and spiritual.

2. When should sparring be introduced?

Even different authentic schools will have different timings for this. However, if you are going to introduce sparring then you should do it when the student has built acceptable rooting. When he has learned to punch and kick properly. When he has understood basic breathing principles and has a minimal understanding of "relaxedness".

It would be better to start with fixed sparring exercises and chi sao type practice.

I believe that putting a beginner kung fu student into a sparring situation is counter productive. Perhaps this is not so true when the training is in a kickboxing format but in a TCMA format it is laughable.

Of course, I am fully aware that during times of war and turmoil students may have been put through crash course type training but the proper way to learn and absorb these arts is through patient long term and dedicated study.

3. What is Kung Fu in YOUR mind?

Kung fu in my mind is a collection of complex and (obviously) misunderstood Chinese fighting systems. Certain methodologies have to be followed to explore the richness, wisdom and the inbuilt complexity of these systems otherwise one is in danger of learning or teaching nothing but a glorified form of kick boxing!

[Hardwork108]

I do not intend to be polemical, but by that logic, it would seem that one would need to have equal knowledge of both CG and WT to be able to make that claim: that is, to say WT is harmful to the development of CG skill, if one knew only CG, then one could not truly say with certainty what the impact of WT would be; one could only make assumptions based on one's external assessment of WT

The "assumption" is based on the knowledge of the people who created and developed Chow Gar and its not so common methodologies. Since various types of weight training had been used in kung fu training for centuries I am sure that the creators of styles such as Chow Gar would have absorbed these methodologies if they had seen fit. Yet, they didn't1

You would know why if you had touched hands with a high level, none weight training exponent/sifu. the power is there and it is very potent. The body is hard yet relaxded and flexible. The shock power is there and so is the speed.

No weights, no press ups and no sit ups!!!

of course if you know only CG, you could certainly validly make a claim that training it can produce strength increase without use of WT - it may or may not be true objectively, but since one is only talking about CG, one is not making claims outside of one's area of knowledge; but that would really be all one could say; not having engaged in WT, one really has no way of being certain of what possible effects it could have on one's CG skill: one doesn't know if it would improve it, have no impact, or cause it to diminish;

If your Chow Gar master tells you that weight training will contradict some of the qualities you are aiming to achieve and once you know some of the lesser known principles involved, while you practice certain exercises that are giving you good results, then it makes sense.

to say otherwise, would be as erroneous as WTers making any statements about CG training without having done it;

Perhaps you will need to direct a post to Sanjuro, Frost, Dragonzbane and others who participated in that particular thread? Of course, you won't as that will show you as taking sides with HW108. No, no we can't have that....

I mean, do you actually know anyone who has trained in CG then gone and done WT and it had a negative effect? or is it just because your sifu said that it would? if the latter, why do you accept this without evidence?

Because the principles have been explained to me to my satisfaction by a genuine sifu.

I have also seen his power and his Iron shield skills. Also, it is not just my sifu. The current head of the style, David Ip is no weight trainer either. And again, I have made references and provided links to an interview with actual Baguazhang grand master who also does not use weight training type exercises.

In his book, "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu", author Wong Kiew Kit, mentions the extremely powerful punches that a Xingyi practitioner might deliver without having used any weight training in his training. There are vague references to this kind of power all over the place but no one will go into too much detail. For that one will need the right school.

and bear in mind that there are many different way of WT, as there are different CG schools, so to generalize to either would be imprudent...

I have always talked about my experience in the particular school in which I have trained. That experience is VALID.

I think that one needs to critically assess statements of this sort: anytime one group engaged in a given set of activity proscribes another type of activity, one has to discern very keenly as to the rationale behind it;

My "rational" would be training a methodology that is valid, powerful, but not well known, under the instructions of a genuine sifu. That is good enough for me and it makes sense. I could see the results of his training on him and I could see the vicious power of the advanced students. And as time went by I could see the results on and for myself as well.

Then i get some guys telling me about the benefits of Olympic weight training or asking me about the lineage of a style that they have no clue about and the name and address of the sifu, as if that would have enlightened them to a methodology that is not really in the public domain.

Others, calling what I do "mythical" or "fantasy". Then theorizing wether I belonged to a cult!!!

Too many fragile egos and too many closed minded clueless Jack of All Trades........

[Dale Dugas]

The "assumption" is based on the knowledge of the people who created and developed Chow Gar and its not so common methodologies. Since various types of weight training had been used in kung fu training for centuries I am sure that the creators of styles such as Chow Gar would have absorbed these methodologies if they had seen fit. Yet, they didn't1

You would know why if you had touched hands with a high level, none weight training exponent/sifu. the power is there and it is very potent. The body is hard yet relaxded and flexible. The shock power is there and so is the speed.

No weights, no press ups and no sit ups!!! It seems you forget to read Shifu Paul Whitrods book where he talks about the Hedgehog Pressups they do to develop the body, the hands, and the spirit. Also he trains his claws using large heavy pieces of wood to grip. Old School grip training using apparatus.


If your Chow Gar master tells you that weight training will contradict some of the qualities you are aiming to achieve and once you know some of the lesser known principles involved, while you practice certain exercises that are giving you good results, then it makes sense.


Perhaps you will need to direct a post to Sanjuro, Frost, Dragonzbane and others who participated in that particular thread? Of course, you won't as that will show you as taking sides with HW108. No, no we can't have that....


Because the principles have been explained to me to my satisfaction by a genuine sifu.

I have also seen his power and his Iron shield skills. Also, it is not just my sifu. The current head of the style, David Ip is no weight trainer either. And again, I have made references and provided links to an interview with actual Baguazhang grand master who also does not use weight training type exercises.

In his book, "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu", author Wong Kiew Kit, mentions the extremely powerful punches that a Xingyi practitioner might deliver without having used any weight training in his training. There are vague references to this kind of power all over the place but no one will go into too much detail. For that one will need the right school.


I have always talked about my experience in the particular school in which I have trained. That experience is VALID.



My "rational" would be training a methodology that is valid, powerful, but not well known, under the instructions of a genuine sifu. That is good enough for me and it makes sense. I could see the results of his training on him and I could see the vicious power of the advanced students. And as time went by I could see the results on and for myself as well.

Then i get some guys telling me about the benefits of Olympic weight training or asking me about the lineage of a style that they have no clue about and the name and address of the sifu, as if that would have enlightened them to a methodology that is not really in the public domain.

Others, calling what I do "mythical" or "fantasy". Then theorizing wether I belonged to a cult!!!

Too many fragile egos and too many closed minded clueless Jack of All Trades........

Total and utter failure once again from the master mouthboxer.

Master Choy Kam Man was Mr. Hong Kong back in the day before he came to the USA. He was also an in the gate disciple of GM Ip Sui, who was the patriach of the Hong Kong Chow Gar association.

How was it that Master Choy was a high level in the gate disciple, using serious amounts of strength training and not thrown out for using weights? Master Kam was also a high level Taijiquan master who was strong way into his old age. I bet all that strength training he did when he was younger did the trick.

You go on about people who just train their art, and never train strength and they can kill.

Pure and utter BS.

If you do not train strength with periods of standing(which by the way is training the bodies tendons and ligaments over time) extra long and heavy weapons(Baguazhang and Xingyiquan use HUGE weapons to develop their STRENGTH), tension sets, calisthenics, weights, KBs, Indian Clubs or resistance cables you are not going to be able to defeat someone who does. It is that simple. Holding stances is strength training. Push Hands against people who are trying to throw you around is STRENGTH TRAINING. Whenever you have any form of tension in the body and are moving it through your structure, it is going to help strengthen said structure over time if done progressively and sanely.

There is nothing wrong with being strong. Words to live by

here is a photo of Master Choy who looks rather jacked for a smaller Chinese man.



Sounds like you are one of the little skinny runts who does not like to train for reality and strength, and is jealous of people who do.

Wake up Master Mouthboxer.

[Hardwork108]

Total and utter failure once again from the master mouthboxer.

Take it easy with the personal insults as you are likely to get your posts deleted by this forum's "moral light", Sanjuro ronin.

Master Choy Kam Man was Mr. Hong Kong back in the day before he came to the USA. He was also an in the gate disciple of GM Ip Sui, who was the patriach of the Hong Kong Chow Gar association.

That story smells. I am not saying that it is not true but it smells. Even externalists here who make use of a fair amount of weight lifting in their training curriculum would not recommend body building type weight training for strength and martial power building, let alone an internal style master of kung fu such as Chow Gar's Ip Sui.

My guess would be that despite of his love for body building he had a love for kung fu and he had the bucks and there is nothing to stop one from applying some of the style's techniques in purely "external" manner. Infact there are many relatively well known teachers who do just that.

I would also assume that in his later years master Choy Kam Man went more into the internal side of training.

Do you know if pumping iron was part of this master's Tai Chi or Chow Gar curriculum? LOL

Because it certainly is not in Ip Sui's curriculum, nor of his son's David Ip's one!!!
One look at their built will tell you that. You can also look at their student' s built.

How was it that Master Choy was a high level in the gate disciple, using serious amounts of strength training and not thrown out for using weights? Master Kam was also a high level Taijiquan master who was strong way into his old age. I bet all that strength training he did when he was younger did the trick.

Yes, that is it, he became a master of two Internal Chinese martial arts because of his Iron Pumping and body building activities in his earlier days. LOL

Why don't we all take up pumping iron and become Internal TCMA masters?

You go on about people who just train their art, and never train strength and they can kill.

You misunderstand. I have repeatedly said that they DO use strength training but without using weights!!!!

That is the whole point of the discussion!!!

Pure and utter BS.

Watch out with the personal insults. Sanjuro does not like them!!!

If you do not train strength with periods of standing(which by the way is training the bodies tendons and ligaments over time)

I am well aware of Zhan Zhuang (standing posture training) and its purpose is a lot more than just "training" the body's tendons.

extra long and heavy weapons(Baguazhang and Xingyiquan use HUGE weapons to develop their STRENGTH),

Yes, I am very well aware of the benefits of using weapons training in kung fu and I guess you could call them weights and I also guess that they are more intensively used as such in some lineages more than others.

In other lineages they may be used less extensively and when used they are to test tthe strength or perhaps develope and fine tune it rather than build it. All of this when the main body of strength has been built through other internal means.

tension sets,

Yes, "Tension" sets are used in Chow Gar. No one is denying that!!!

calisthenics,

Some solo exercises using one's own body weight are also used in Chow Gar. LOL

weights, KBs, Indian Clubs

I am sure that some valid Internal martial arts use them, but the lineage of Chow Gar that I practice does not!!

or resistance cables

Those could be handy. Probably no harm in using those....

you are not going to be able to defeat someone who does.

You cannot make such a statement as you are not familiar with the Chow Gar methodology in question.

It is that simple. Holding stances is strength training. Push Hands against people who are trying to throw you around is STRENGTH TRAINING. Whenever you have any form of tension in the body and are moving it through your structure, it is going to help strengthen said structure over time if done progressively and sanely.

The above mentioned methodologies are not in question!!!

Look, you really have misunderstood my point. This is even more amazing because for obvious reasons, I have been repeating myself a zillion times. Actually, repetitions have been the order of the day in Knucklehead land...LOL

The issue here has not anything to do with not doing strength training. It has to do with DOING strength training without using so called modern weight training or any weight training for that matter.

There is nothing wrong with being strong. Words to live by

LOL....I have spent hours posting about how strong my sifu and the advanced students were, and this is what you come up with? LOL

here is a photo of Master Choy who looks rather jacked for a smaller Chinese man.

Well he is no Arnold Schwarznegger but I hear that he was a big hit with the girls.

Sounds like you are one of the little skinny runts who does not like to train for reality and strength, and is jealous of people who do.

You have made a similar statement before and I have told you that I am not a "wing chun stick man". Just as I have told you that I do do strength training but that I do not use weights.

It seems that there are other deeper Internal methodologies that you are not aware of......

Wake up Master Mouthboxer.

I believe that you should just read what I write so that you don't enter threads and repeatedly insult me with empty and clueless accusations.

And oh yes here is the link where the Baguazhang master, Ma Chuanxu was interviewed. You probably did not read it the first time round. I hope that you read it now and enlighten yourself about different Internal methodologies:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

Do feel free to send him an email, calling him a master mouth boxer and a weakling.....

[Hardwork108]

It seems you forget to read Shifu Paul Whitrods book where he talks about the Hedgehog Pressups they do to develop the body, the hands, and the spirit.

If you are talking about the yoga type slow "curving" of the body and then "diving and lifting" of the head type of exercises then they are valid. Their purpose is more than to just develop the body, hands and the spirit.

Also he trains his claws using large heavy pieces of wood to grip. Old School grip training using apparatus.

You mean that he does not use Olympic weight training methodologies to develope his claws?

[Dale Dugas]

good luck with all of it.

[Hardwork108]

good luck with all of it.

Now, that is more like it, Mr Dale Dugas.

Good luck to you too.