Skill or Strength ??

[Lucas]

In that case, by pass it all. Build a posse of guys wielding dark cars, clothes and sunglasses.

[Mr Punch]

functional strength is functional strength, whether your moving weights, boulders, linebackers, people, or whatever. If you're talking about push ups and stuff, that's muscular endurance, and you could do it for a warm up or a cool down!

This is correct.

I have a different opinon about strength.

Which is fine but seems to be based in your own anecdotal observation over science.

Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves. Over the last 20 years many students came to my school after lifting weights for many years. Their arms and shoulders were so thick and muscular that they could not move functionally the way the style / form asked them to move.

While I don't doubt your statement, the way they've been training is frankly wrong. These people have been tending to go for bodybuilding rather than strength training, and furthermore , they haven't ever been shown how to stretch out properly. I'll bet that also among your students and even among people who've dropped out of your school for whatever reason, there've also been functional strength trainers who you haven't noticed as such because they don't contradict this:

There is a old kung fu statement about arms / fists:

Arms should be like ropes, Fists should be like rocks at the end of the rope. Arms swing from the shoulders like they are literally ropes with rocks attached at the ends.

Yes you are correct, strength is strength, however, the results of your strength training will affect your martial arts movements.

Ginosifu

Correct. However, the effect may just as well be good.

In answer, I just train strength, endurance, stretching right now, because I dont have time to go and meet my training partners. Solo skill training is mostly a waste of time. Bagwork is OK, but I haven't been able to use my bag since we moved to a place with a smaller balcony. I've been training for a long time so the forms are only useful so I don't forget the forms: their effect on my martial functionality is long since finished.

[Mr Punch]

In that case, by pass it all. Build a posse of guys wielding dark cars, clothes and sunglasses.

Pah, amateur! No clothes is far more intimidating than dark clothes.

[Lucas]

Pah, amateur! No clothes is far more intimidating than dark clothes.

I guess you're right....worked for the celts eh?

[SevenStar]

I have a different opinon about strength.

Strength training such as power lifting and heavy body building increase strength! However they also build in such a way that they do not move well for martia arts moves. Over the last 20 years many students came to my school after lifting weights for many years. Their arms and shoulders were so thick and muscular that they could not move functionally the way the style / form asked them to move.

There is a old kung fu statement about arms / fists:

Arms should be like ropes, Fists should be like rocks at the end of the rope. Arms swing from the shoulders like they are literally ropes with rocks attached at the ends.

Yes you are correct, strength is strength, however, the results of your strength training will affect your martial arts movements.

Ginosifu

bodybuilding is not conducive to martial arts movements, but powerlifting is great for it. the compound motions involved are great for martial arts.

[Yum Cha]

Shouldn't the first question be, "What do you want to achieve?"

Form competition?

Fighting?

General Aerobic Fitness?

Injury Recovery?

Weight gain/reduction?


Are you 6 foot 6, 300lbs or 5 foot 3, 110?

Are you 19 or 60?

There is no cure-all solution, each to their own weakneses for their own objectives.

[David Jamieson]

would you willingly give up one eye over two just to know what its like?
This kind of question for me is dead end when it is served without context.

[ginosifu]

Shouldn't the first question be, "What do you want to achieve?"

Form competition?

Fighting?

General Aerobic Fitness?

Injury Recovery?

Weight gain/reduction?


Are you 6 foot 6, 300lbs or 5 foot 3, 110?

Are you 19 or 60?

This is strictly Martial related training for self defense and fighting.

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose). My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people).

Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.

In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu

[Laukarbo]

theres a cantonese saying

first balls second power and third kung fu

[bawang]

true, strength beats ten techniques. repeating drills is good but mindless repeating is not as good, you just have to be "cooked" in your techniques. you can spend the time doing something more important. if imagine you only have one hour a day, then punching in a stance is good.

[bodhitree]

This is strictly Martial related training for self defense and fighting.

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose). My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people).

Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.

In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu

I have yet to see an example of proper strength training screwing up anything. Even golfers strength train now, using dynamic lifts. Again, horse stance, push ups, dynamic tension will not carry over to strength after a certain point. Muscular endurance certainly, but actual force generated, no. These type activities actually use a completely different bodily process for using energy. If your goals are for self defense, explosive power should be your thing! In most street fights, muscular endurance and conditioning are going to take a back seat to ogre strength! Working power is definately the way to go! If you said your goal was sport fighting I would say condiditoning would play a much larger role!


Please don't make assumptions about strength trianing that are inaccurate! Sprinters, boxers, mma fighters, golfers, football players, track and field players, and almost every power athlete strength trains! Given a good program it is only beneficial!

[sanjuro_ronin]

First thing to go is cardio, then flexability, then strength, Skill is the last thing to go, provided that all the above have a solid core and are not "fly by night".

Size and strength can trump skill, seen it a bunch of times.
Being only 5-6 and 170lbs and doing Ma for close to 30 years, I can tell you that to underestimate size and strength is not a smart thing to do, ever.

That said, there is NO reason why one must be sacraficed over the other if one is smart in their training and understands quality OVER quantity.

[Mr Punch]

I have not lifted weights in my life and people have told me my grip is like steel ...

So, you have no experience about the subject you are talking about, about the discipline you are criticizing...? But you do have anecdotal evidence from 'people'...?

and during some of my San Shou / Fighting matches I have broken bones and injured people internally (not on purpose).

Would you care to give us a few details precisely how and what parts of their bodies?

My Sifu has nicknamed me Doctor Destructo, because I break just about everything I touch (not just people).

Not Doctor Clumsy then? And what's your sifu's name, Captain Hyperbole? Where can we buy the comic?

Kung Fu strength training is different than weight lifting. Dynamic Tension sets, Horse stance, different type of push ups and internal core training have kept me strong.

Dynamic tension sets like any kind of anaerobic isometrics, have their place in a good strength regime, as any good weights-based strength trainer will agree. Horse stance is another such isometric exercise. However, without some kind of supplementary and integrated strength programme the benefits will plateau very quickly.

Push-ups are good again as part of a sensible programme, but if tht is the only resistance exercise you do they are specifying muscle groups more than basic weight exercises like say, squats or deadlifts, and again without increasing the resistance by finding ever more extreme angles (hint: there is nowhere to go after a handstand push-up!) or increasing the weight (eg. push-ups with weights on your back - hence, er, weight training) you're not doing anything other than maintaining your fitness levels.

Your choice of words is 'have kept me strong' - I suspect if you are as strong as 'people' say, you were strong to begin with (so there is a substantial genetic factor or nurture: you were fighting to stay alive within the pack of wolves who raised you...?!) or the 'people' are puny.

In the end, peeps who lift weights the wrong way usually end up screwing up their kung fu.

Ginosifu

Sure. People whose form is bad or who don't stretch out will screw up more than just their kung fu. But people who rely completely on archaic solely skill training methods and ignore the strength aspects will get screwed up by those who train in an integrated whole body manner. In Japan it's shin, gi, tai (mind/spirit, technique, body) and I'm sure the Chinese have an equivalent... as Laukarbo has pointed out they have some more prosaic versions.

Good luck to you if that's the way you train, or sine you seem to indicate you can handle yourself, good luck to your students if that's the way you teach.

Finally, the fact that you call yourself Gino sifu and your sig includes a silly face , quite apart from your tone suggests that you didn't come here to discuss the question you posited, merely to hold court and tell people the 'right' answer. Stick around, you might learn something, 'sifu'.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dynamic tension sets like any kind of anaerobic isometrics, have their place in a good strength regime, as any good weights-based strength trainer will agree.

There are isometric tension exercises ( static because there is "no" movement in isometrics) and there are Isokinetic exercises, which is where dynamic ( moving) tension exercise fall in, they are LESS intense than Irometrics for obvious reasons, BUT they train the muscles through the whole range of motion.

[Mr Punch]

Good point, my mistake. I knew there was another word for it. My point still stands, I reckon.