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Thread: Training

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post

    This is sparring ?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Dave, I don't appreciate being repeatedly referred to as a "troll" for simply trying to carry on a productive discussion as you are doing now. Do we not have any standards in this forum?
    I can appreciate that.

    Everyone knows who they are so I should not need to direct this to individuals.

    We are supposed to be mature so let's keep it civil going forward.

    No more name calling or the posts will be deleted.
    This goes both ways gentleman.
    Nothing further needs to be said, let the past stay in the past and move forward instead.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    This is sparring ?
    I don't believe it is sparring.
    More an example of training using forward energy(??)

    Of course I cannot speak as I am viewing it as an outsider.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    This is sparring ?
    There is a short section of light sparring from 0.29

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I don't believe it is sparring.
    More an example of training using forward energy(??)

    Of course I cannot speak as I am viewing it as an outsider.

    Maybe we could call this "controlled targeted sparring"? Not really what most people are referring to when they want to see a sparring clip. Problem one is that he is sparring one of his students. So of course the student is not really trying to "give as good as he gets." This could be on purpose for the camera, or simply subconscious due to the fact that he is sparring his instructor. The second problem is that the student is not doing anything outside the realm of WSLVT. So it is a very artificial set up because if you ever had to fight, it is doubtful it would be against another skilled Wing Chun guy. So it really doesn't highlight what Michael Kurth can do against a more typical fighter. Now I think Michael Kurth is really good! There are some impressive things in the clip. I just wouldn't call it real sparring.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post

    Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

    :
    Jai Harmon is the only guy I can think of right now from the WSLVT lineage with real sparring clips up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA7rj7b_sM0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFOwFLf3k0o


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKfjS1aF_s


    Jai is a good fighter. But I don't see any super special Wing Chun here, do you? He has a good low sweep. But wait a minute....that's an "application" isn't it?? I see lots of Pak Sau and Wing Chun blast (chain punching). I don't think I saw a single Bong/Lop combination to set anything up. And you see a LOT of Bong/Lop combinations in just about every clip of WSLVT training. And....I know, I know!......Chi Sau is not fighting and what they are training in those clips is not meant to be applied! But still, one would tend to think that if there is so much emphasis put on the attributes developed from that repeated Bong/Lop exchange structure....that something resembling it would show up in sparring. But that's just me.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-12-2017 at 09:44 AM.

  7. #22
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    I thought of someone else! Jerry Yeung is another WSLVT lineage guy that has some good clips up.

    This one is labeled sparring, but isn't really. Some light Gor Sau work with one of his students:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_xCxE3rCF4

    Some light sparring here starting at 1:30. But not much to it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqwNGUq60I

    Jerry likes to reach out and use the "neck pulling hand" from the dummy form. Does that count as an "application"??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMyu5tNBtk


    That's about it.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-12-2017 at 06:25 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I don't believe it is sparring.
    More an example of training using forward energy(??)

    Of course I cannot speak as I am viewing it as an outsider.
    When I spar I go local boxing gym (or I was , they closed recently ) , anyway , this doesn't look like sparring , but the thing I did notice is that movements on the video are so fast , like from old Charile Chaplin's movies .I mean , it is ok to be fast but this ...

  9. #24
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    Understand that all will not train the same way.
    No need to be derisive just cause you do not do things the same way.
    Continuing to post deriding comments may be considered trolling.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Understand that all will not train the same way.
    No need to be derisive just cause you do not do things the same way.
    Continuing to post deriding comments may be considered trolling.
    Basically , I have to agree with everything and cannot say what I thinlk? Of course everyone has the right to do whatever they like ,I was called a fool for saying the same thing , but I also have a right not to agree with eberything , or maybe not . Speed of the video is obviously increased , I just noticed that ,that is all. If stating the obvius is trolling maybe I should not comment anything at all ...

  11. #26
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    Sensitive are we?
    Did not realize I put your name in my post, will have to see if it is hiding somewhere, perhaps in stealth mode???
    Was not directed to you per se but if you think the shoe fits................
    It is possible to voice an opinion without deriding others.
    Of course that does sometimes require skill and self control

    Now I'll bet you will say I am accusing you of not having self control......but it is not directed at you per se.
    Just happens you replied to a post and I replied to you.
    If not applicable to you then don't take as directed at you.
    Of course only you know your motivation so............................
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
    So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
    No. The "same movements" have completely different meanings.

    In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses?
    Not as a fight simulation.

    don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?
    Not as a fight simulation.

    If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.
    Attribute development, like alignment, balance, distance, timing, etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
    Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable.
    Unbeatable because we train attributes through chi-sau? You are not being logical.

    In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
    Who?

    Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?
    Ex-WT students, of which there are literally hundreds who have switched, including high-ranking instructors, same as from TWC.

    I don't know any other system that can say the same. That alone would be enough to pique my interest and have me traveling to the nearest VT school to see what it's all about.

    When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.
    VT is best experienced and understood in person.

    Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application.
    You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this.
    We tell you taan-sau is a training tool and doesn't show up in fighting, but you think we will in fact use it as a block or something?

    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
    Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
    If so then I would submit that you train applications.
    No. In pun-sau, taan and fuk are antagonistic training tools for developing VT punching. Neither are "techniques" for fighting. Bong ensures squared facing while training the punches, and helps prevent overturning for example in seung-ma/teui-ma drills.

    We don't fight with both arms equally extended like this, and none of this will show up as "techniques" in fighting.

    Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes".
    Taan-sau trains the punch. We punch. We don't use taan-sau to block or anything.

    You are making the same assessment from ignorance that KPM made.

    If you don't understand a training method you have not experienced or even seen, you are not justified in making an assessment on its efficacy.

    You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring.
    Only because they already have such clips online. I'm just asking to have things pointed out to me that I don't see in what is already publicly available.

    I have not asked anyone to make sparring clips to satisfy me personally. I don't think anyone would care to do that.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Problem one is that he is sparring one of his students. So of course the student is not really trying to "give as good as he gets."
    Of course? These guys do fight each other and leave training bloodied up quite often. The student is being shut down, but not for not trying!

    The second problem is that the student is not doing anything outside the realm of WSLVT. So it is a very artificial set up because if you ever had to fight, it is doubtful it would be against another skilled Wing Chun guy. So it really doesn't highlight what Michael Kurth can do against a more typical fighter.
    MK has earned a reputation as a fighter in Germany and has put his butt on the line for his VT numerous times against people of various backgrounds (other KF styles, MMA, etc..) who have come to test him out.

    Sean, who posts here some times, has witnessed those matches, and I have also personally met some of MK's non-VT opponents who said he was the scariest person they'd ever fought. Threw all their arsenal at him, and he completely shut them down. That's what good VT does.

    Don't believe it? Ask around in Germany, or go give it a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Jai Harmon
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Jerry Yeung
    Neither of these guys are from the same line, and you know that. You have been told.

    Jerry likes to reach out and use the "neck pulling hand" from the dummy form. Does that count as an "application"??
    A pretty useless application, since he rarely accomplishes anything by it and doesn't know what to do once he gets it on. Looks like a display of dominance, more than anything.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    Speed of the video is obviously increased , I just noticed that ,that is all.
    lol

    That's a very nice compliment! Probably the jump cuts between clips of action being too fast for your brain to process giving the illusion that it is inhumanly fast. In reality... he's just fast.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    Basically , I have to agree with everything and cannot say what I thinlk? Of course everyone has the right to do whatever they like ,I was called a fool for saying the same thing , but I also have a right not to agree with eberything , or maybe not . Speed of the video is obviously increased , I just noticed that ,that is all. If stating the obvius is trolling maybe I should not comment anything at all ...
    Please do say what you think. It won't bother me and I welcome discussion

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