I think forms suck

[Hardwork108]

I have the "fan boy" on ignore, but I can bet securely that his posts remain long rants with fake airs of superiority. HIs initial incarnation was classic and idicative of all the features. We revealed his "wing chun" lineage, but is he still claiming the fake internal teacher in London??

[TenTigers]

Actually, there is "secret" training, or at least training that is not shared with everyone.
I am not speaking of some unscrupulous Sifu dangling a carrott, or milking his students to pay more for inner door discipleship. There are simply some systems and teachers who prefer not to share a particular method or skill with others. That's his business. But it does exist, always has, always will.

BTW-one man's "secret technique" may be another's standard operating procedure.

And simply because it's a "secret," doesn't make it better or fabulous.
Your Sifu's "secret" internal training, may be something that you have no desire to learn. If my Sifu has secret iron crotch training, which required hanging weights from "The Hammer of the Godz," I would most likely decline-especially if they attach with fish hooks.

Sometimes, a technique is closed door, only because it requires one on one training, and cannot be done in a group. Face it, Gung -Fu requires hands on, direct transmission. Once you teach to the masses, many things get lost. Sure, you can drill, do line drills, hit the bags, and do reaction drills. But there are many sensitivity/reaction drills, and specific qualities of energy, that must be felt, and cannot be learned just by simply watching, or following along.

As far as forms go, are the neccesary for skill development? Yes and No.
There are certain systems that have forms that are what we refer to as, "developmental," and are a series of specific drills.
One can argue, then just do the drills. In many cases, this is exactly what is taught. For example: Sam Bo Ging has the "three power strike" performed 4 times. The student is then told to do that particular movement 108 (or whatever, an arbitrary number) times.
In Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, there are several positions the student goes through in the opening sequence-two hands cutting down, two hands pulling up and then extending forward, etc. These movements are to be done separately, 100 times (or whatever)
There are forms that are drills divided into segments, where each segment brings the breath/specific contractions to different parts of the body in a specific sequence.
As far as doing a form with a bunch of combinations and thinking it is a substitute for fighting? Stupid is as stupid does.
Forms used as textbooks or catalogues of the system need not be taught to anyone but those who desire to pass down the system. Sure, you can substitute a notebook, or just have a great memory. Whatever floats yer boat. Many systems were passed down without forms. Judo, jiu-jutsu (although they actually do have "kata") Aikido, many chin-na based systems, it seems do not use forms, but still have a very structured method of teaching.

[Hardwork108]

Actually, there is "secret" training, or at least training that is not shared with everyone.
I am not speaking of some unscrupulous Sifu dangling a carrott, or milking his students to pay more for inner door discipleship. There are simply some systems and teachers who prefer not to share a particular method or skill with others. That's his business. But it does exist, always has, always will.

BTW-one man's "secret technique" may be another's standard operating procedure.

And simply because it's a "secret," doesn't make it better or fabulous.
Your Sifu's "secret" internal training, may be something that you have no desire to learn. If my Sifu has secret iron crotch training, which required hanging weights from "The Hammer of the Godz," I would most likely decline-especially if they attach with fish hooks.

Sometimes, a technique is closed door, only because it requires one on one training, and cannot be done in a group. Face it, Gung -Fu requires hands on, direct transmission. Once you teach to the masses, many things get lost. Sure, you can drill, do line drills, hit the bags, and do reaction drills. But there are many sensitivity/reaction drills, and specific qualities of energy, that must be felt, and cannot be learned just by simply watching, or following along.

As far as forms go, are the neccesary for skill development? Yes and No.
There are certain systems that have forms that are what we refer to as, "developmental," and are a series of specific drills.
One can argue, then just do the drills. In many cases, this is exactly what is taught. For example: Sam Bo Ging has the "three power strike" performed 4 times. The student is then told to do that particular movement 108 (or whatever, an arbitrary number) times.
In Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, there are several positions the student goes through in the opening sequence-two hands cutting down, two hands pulling up and then extending forward, etc. These movements are to be done separately, 100 times (or whatever)
There are forms that are drills divided into segments, where each segment brings the breath/specific contractions to different parts of the body in a specific sequence.
As far as doing a form with a bunch of combinations and thinking it is a substitute for fighting? Stupid is as stupid does.
Forms used as textbooks or catalogues of the system need not be taught to anyone but those who desire to pass down the system. Sure, you can substitute a notebook, or just have a great memory. Whatever floats yer boat. Many systems were passed down without forms. Judo, jiu-jutsu (although they actually do have "kata") Aikido, many chin-na based systems, it seems do not use forms, but still have a very structured method of teaching.

Excellent post!

That just about covered everything.

HW108

PS. People reading this please compare TT's post with Lkfmdc's contributions in this thread.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Many systems were passed down without forms. Judo, jiu-jutsu (although they actually do have "kata") Aikido, many chin-na based systems, it seems do not use forms, but still have a very structured method of teaching.

Agreed on all points. Isn't Gu Lao Wing Chun supposed to be another of those?

@ Hardwork: any comments on post 454?

[TenTigers]

Agreed on all points. Isn't Gu Lao Wing Chun supposed to be another of those?

@ Hardwork: any comments on post 454?

exactly. But then systems such as those also have Kuen Kuit, or Kuen Po, which serve as mnemonic devices.

[Hardwork108]

Right. So if I was doing manual labor most of the week, I wouldn't concern myself with "strength training," focusing instead on coordinating the existing resources I had for optimal effect and efficiency. Stretching, relaxing, nervous system training, breath training, combat training, etc.

I see your point and it applies to the more externally trained kung fu systems, but the fact remains that other methodologies were developed where strength and power were built through internal exercises. Those same methodologies have principles that see the typical weight training as a provider of "stiff" power, rather than relaxed power that they are aiming to develop.

I would also like to point out that many kung fu practitioners/masters were from aristocratic backgrounds as well.

It's also common knowledge that the peaceful tribe taught Samurai Jack to jump using weights. He hadn't spent his whole life jumping, see... he wasn't a tree dweller. Then he taught them how to move when fighting... something they weren't used to.

I am not sure what you are referring to here.

Just checking, what does "weight training as in the western strength development sense" mean to you anyway?

It means many things includingthe development of specific muscles for strength, power and resistance. On the surface this makes sense if you are participating in external martial arts. However, it does not sit well with some internal methodologies.

And it's your opinion that people today aren't smart enough to do this?

Not if they have not mastered and fully understood the given system they are trying so hard to improve!

One of my instructors has a saying: "Masters are only found in the Yellow Pages."

I see his point, but the fact remains that there are genuine masters of kung fu on this planet.

The bottom line that I see is this: People have a set of common needs, such as food, water, rest and exercise. Beyond that, their needs vary based on their environment. A good Kung Fu teacher will identify their students' strengths and weaknesses, and give specific training exercises which will eliminate the deficiences and balance the student. So a student who's incredibly strong from working in the woods all day may not be taught any weight exercises, whereas a student who's incredibly frail from urban life may be taught a great amount of weighted methods. This is what a good Kung Fu teacher should aim for - to teach their students according to their needs. "Master in the Yellow Pages" joke aside, I have great respect and admiration for instructors who can skillfully develop the student based on their specific needs.What if, however, the strong student wasn't made aware of the reason why he's not doing any weight training? If he then went on to teach, he may end up teaching everyone without weights. Likewise, the frail student may end up teaching everyone WITH weights; and both would swear up and down that they learned the complete, authentic version of their Master's Kung Fu. From our perspective, did they?

I honestly believe that you (and others here) have misunderstood the methodology that I have been referring to, because you have not been exposed to this type of internal training before. The methodology in question does not contain weight training within its curriculum because the exponents develop their power through not so well known gongs and other exercises. That is, THEY DON'T NEED WEIGHT TRAINING,nor the "stiff"strength that one gets from such training. If you are externally strong because of weight training then you will be at a disadvantage in such a school. You will feel "weak" when you touch hands with them. They will feel you to be physically "hollow".

You know, I bet they take exception to the same thing.

If they take exception to being informed of Internal TCMA concepts that they are clueless about and go on to criticize (shooting in the dark) and ridicule that person for acting like a "kung fu god" then that is their problem.

I presented a valid Internal TCMA methodology and no one here has come out and admit that they were unfamiliar with this mode of practice. That is because they have their egos and sometimes their kickboxing businesses to protect.




Frost running off to play with his Olympic weightraining set, to improve his kung fu, Lol,lol,lol





And inspite of all that, the fact remains that there are Internal kung fu styles that can create incredible power and strength without using weight training, yes that fact remains and will remain constant forever!

HW108

[Xiao3 Meng4]

exactly. But then systems such as those also have Kuen Kuit, or Kuen Po, which serve as mnemonic devices.

Yay mnemonics!

That's the underlying purpose of the ZRM poems I know. The system itself as I know it uses the 5 element mnemonic system - The first poem is metal, the second is water, the third is wood and the fourth is fire. Earth is present in each of the four poems.

Each poem has four lines. The first line of each poem links to metal, the 2nd to water, the 3rd to wood, the 4th to fire, and earth is present in each line. (I've always wondered whether or not "roads" are built like this?)

Each line has four words, again relating to metal, water, wood, fire... with earth being present in each word. So the first poem's first line's first word is a mnemonic device chosen to best represent the 5 element mnemonic as it manifests in that position in the set of poems. Each word builds on the previous word's idea, each line on the previous line, each poem on the previous poem. Each word also serves as a header under which certain drills and exercises are emphasized. Again, the drills progressively build on the previous material.

For example, the Poem1/Line1/Word1 is "flinching"and is chosen to represent the mnemonic of metal/metal/metal (earth is everywhere in the system, and therefore not listed.) The idea here is to elicit a "safety flinch" response so as not to get hit by stuff, whether it be a wayward ball, a punch, a stick or a car. A key to this is to develop a person's sense acquisition and reflexive actions - both linked to metal. There is also the idea of shielding oneself, or forming a perimeter - again, metal. All of this is drilled within the context (earth) of hand-to-hand conflict.

No one entering the system needs to know ANY of the 5 element stuff above. In fact, you could easily learn the entire system without referring to it. It's just how the model is laid out, and knowing it is useful for retention and instruction.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I see your point and it applies to the more externally trained kung fu systems, but the fact remains that other methodologies were developed where strength and power were built through internal exercises. Those same methodologies have principles that see the typical weight training as a provider of "stiff" power, rather than relaxed power that they are aiming to develop.

Have you ever heard the terms "fast-twitch" and "slow-twitch" muscle fibres before? Though similar, they vary considerably in essential function and development. One requires substantial resistance training, the other less so - in fact, if done incorrectly, it can hinder the result you're going for.

Also, what's your take on the Yi Jin Jing? Do you know what it does? Have you asked how many people here practice it?

I would also like to point out that many kung fu practitioners/masters were from aristocratic backgrounds as well.

And some trained with weights, and some didn't.

It's also common knowledge that the peaceful tribe taught Samurai Jack to jump using weights. He hadn't spent his whole life jumping, see... he wasn't a tree dweller. Then he taught them how to move when fighting... something they weren't used to.

I am not sure what you are referring to here.

It means many things includingthe development of specific muscles for strength, power and resistance.

What you have just described is slow-twitch muscle fibre development. This is an important part of the equation - too little and no matter how much fast twitch you have, you won't push anything, let alone penetrate it. Too much and you risk not having enough fast twitch capacity to move at full speed. The trick is to have a balance of the two. Modern sports understand this, and do not train slow-twitch beyond their needs. IMO, different Kung Fu styles have different slow-twitch/fast-twitch development ratios, so we're bound to see stylists with varying emphasis, all the way to the extremes of "slow twitch only" and "fast-twitch only."

However, it does not sit well with some internal methodologies.

So slow-twitch isn't so much their thing. No biggie. I'm a middleman myself.

I see his point, but the fact remains that there are genuine masters of kung fu on this planet.

And I am quite certain that most or all of them would never dare call themselves that.

I honestly believe that you (and others here) have misunderstood the methodology that I have been referring to

We've noticed.

I presented a valid Internal TCMA methodology and no one here has come out and admit that they were unfamiliar with this mode of practice. That is because they have their egos and sometimes their kickboxing businesses to protect.

Again: I am unfamiliar with Chow Gar.

And inspite of all that, the fact remains that there are Internal kung fu styles that can create incredible power and strength without using weight training, yes that fact remains and will remain constant forever!

Ok. Happy Training!

P.S.: I'd appreciate it if you left the attacks on other posters out of your direct replies to me. If you plan on attacking me in my posts, fine. Otherwise please cut your personal feuds from our conversations.

[lkfmdc]

Please don't bother with "hardwork", it is obvious he has very limited CMA training, bases his information on fairy tales, and has really no clue about modern science, physiology, anatomy or training theory

[Hardwork108]

Please don't bother with "hardwork", it is obvious he has very limited CMA training, bases his information on fairy tales, and has really no clue about modern science, physiology, anatomy or training theory

[Hardwork108]

Have you ever heard the terms "fast-twitch" and "slow-twitch" muscle fibres before? Though similar, they vary considerably in essential function and development. One requires substantial resistance training, the other less so - in fact, if done incorrectly, it can hinder the result you're going for.

No, I have not heard those terms, but thank you for the above info.

Also, what's your take on the Yi Jin Jing? Do you know what it does?

I don't have a take on it as I don't practice those particular Shaolin qigong exercises. I do know that their purpose is to strengthen tendons and sinews, while increasing their flexibility for health and martial purposes. Do you know what it does?

So, I guess if they are practiced correctly and with understanding, using breath, mind and movement, then they can be of benefit, given the right time span of practice.

Have you asked how many people here practice it?

No I haven't. And if people "practice" it, then that does not necessarily mean that they know it, just as everyone here claiming kung fu knowledge means ziltch the minute you take the discussion away from sports fighting into deeper areas. Of course, there are exceptions here.

Are you one of the exceptions?

And some trained with weights, and some didn't.

I have never disputed that fact.

Again, my point is that there are internal styles that do not use weight training for strength and power development because weight training is not dimmed necessary and it will negate some of the results these styles aim to achieve.

What you have just described is slow-twitch muscle fibre development. This is an important part of the equation - too little and no matter how much fast twitch you have, you won't push anything, let alone penetrate it. Too much and you risk not having enough fast twitch capacity to move at full speed. The trick is to have a balance of the two. Modern sports understand this, and do not train slow-twitch beyond their needs. IMO, different Kung Fu styles have different slow-twitch/fast-twitch development ratios, so we're bound to see stylists with varying emphasis, all the way to the extremes of "slow twitch only" and "fast-twitch only."

The extremes of fast twitch don't seem to have an effect in the power department of this particular lineage of Chow Gar. I wonder why?

So slow-twitch isn't so much their thing. No biggie. I'm a middleman myself.

Whatever works for you.

And I am quite certain that most or all of them would never dare call themselves that.

I agree. I have referred to that fact in another thread, recently.

We've noticed.

Don't take it wrongly. There is no problem in being unfamiliar with a TCMA concepts. This area of study is vast and profound.

I had no problem admitting that I had not heard of the "muscle twitch" and saying that I had limited understanding of Yi Jin Jing. I don't practice the lattr and I don't pretend to understand it more than I actually do. I could take a few more guesses about it regarding its "linking" aspects, but they will just be guesses. If some one who has valid experience in them and explain these exercises, then I will listen and hopefully take something useful home with me. What I won't do is say "hey I know all about it but don't ask me details...."LOL!

Again: I am unfamiliar with Chow Gar.

And you are honest!

It is also my understanding that similar methodologies are used in certain lineages of Dragon and Pak Mei (and a few other) kung fu styles.

Ok. Happy Training!

Thank you. You too.

P.S.: I'd appreciate it if you left the attacks on other posters out of your direct replies to me. If you plan on attacking me in my posts, fine. Otherwise please cut your personal feuds from our conversations.

I just wanted to show you the ridiculousness of the way this thread was developing. Anyway, I guess I made my point in that regard. No more personal issues in our correspondence.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I don't have a take on it as I don't practice those particular Shaolin qigong exercises. I do know that their purpose is to strengthen tendons and sinews, while increasing their flexibility for health and martial purposes. Do you know what it does?

It turns you into a Golden LoHan!

Nah, seriously, their purpose is mainly as you say, and it's a remarkable thing to develop. Heck, it's remarkable to be ABLE to develop those things! I've done a version of it in the past, but certainly not 1000 times or anything like that. According to the style I learned, it's meant to be done in the springtime only.

This kind of training is way underrated. A Chimp's strength comes not from his muscles, which are smaller than a man's, but from his joints, which are much bigger. To strengthen the joints is to strengthen the tendons, sinews and fasciae. To practice the Yi Jin Jing (or maybe Iron wire?) is to more closely approximate the power of a chimp! If I were to bet on a bareknuckle fight between a chimp-sized chimp and a man, I'd bet on the chimp. Between a MAN-sized chimp and a man... well!

So, I guess if they[muscle exercises] are practiced correctly and with understanding, using breath, mind and movement, then they can be of benefit, given the right time span of practice.

Sure.

Again, my point is that there are internal styles that do not use weight training for strength and power development because weight training is not dimmed necessary and it will negate some of the results these styles aim to achieve.

Could you explain what results will be negated?

The extremes of fast twitch don't seem to have an effect in the power department of this particular lineage of Chow Gar. I wonder why?

perhaps because there's a sinew/tendon changing aspect to your training?

Don't take it wrongly. There is no problem in being unfamiliar with a TCMA concepts. This area of study is vast and profound.

I agree, there is no problem. There is however a difference between being unfamiliar with TCMA concepts and being unfamiliar with the way you are expressing those concepts - which, at times, has seemed thick with (ironically enough) MCKwoonisms. Sometimes it's just a question of clarity. Most times, actually.

I had no problem admitting that I had not heard of the "muscle twitch" and saying that I had limited understanding of Yi Jin Jing. I don't practice the lattr and I don't pretend to understand it more than I actually do. I could take a few more guesses about it regarding its "linking" aspects, but they will just be guesses. If some one who has valid experience in them and explain these exercises, then I will listen and hopefully take something useful home with me. What I won't do is say "hey I know all about it but don't ask me details...."LOL!

We're on a Kung Fu Forum: FORUM. Welcome to it.

[Hardwork108]

It turns you into a Golden LoHan!

I knew it! I knew it!

Nah, seriously, their purpose is mainly as you say, and it's a remarkable thing to develop. Heck, it's remarkable to be ABLE to develop those things! I've done a version of it in the past, but certainly not 1000 times or anything like that. According to the style I learned, it's meant to be done in the springtime only.

I guess there is a meeting point between various internal exercises. Some of the SPM methodology aims to achieve similar qualities.

This kind of training is way underrated. A Chimp's strength comes not from his muscles, which are smaller than a man's, but from his joints, which are much bigger. To strengthen the joints is to strengthen the tendons, sinews and fasciae. To practice the Yi Jin Jing (or maybe Iron wire?) is to more closely approximate the power of a chimp! If I were to bet on a bareknuckle fight between a chimp-sized chimp and a man, I'd bet on the chimp. Between a MAN-sized chimp and a man... well!

Actually, you could use the same example to demonstrate what CG tries to achieve.

Could you explain what results will be negated?

I can explain in a general manner without being explicit as these aspects of training are not for discussion on internet forums. However, I can make the general statement that says that weight training will negate this particular style's body unity principles as well as creating "stiff" power/strength, which is to be avoided in favor of relaxed power, while appreciating the fact that there are other styles that use relaxed power also practicing "careful" weight training.

According to your profile you practice Internal kung fu, so I am supposing that what I have said will be adequate to give you an idea.

perhaps because there's a sinew/tendon changing aspect to your training?

Correct.

It is good to corresponde with people who actually train kung fu, even if you use certain different TCMA practices.

I agree, there is no problem. There is however a difference between being unfamiliar with TCMA concepts and being unfamiliar with the way you are expressing those concepts - which, at times, has seemed thick with (ironically enough) MCKwoonisms. Sometimes it's just a question of clarity. Most times, actually.

I cannot be more clear than repeating the same point a dozen times. Here again (not for you but for the rest): There are styles of Internal TCMAs that do not use weight training in their power/strength building methodology as this will negate certain results that they aim to achieve.

I can also add, so as to be clear:

1. I am not saying that all other styles of kung fu are bad!LOL

2. I am not saying that I have the real kung fu and no one else has ! LOL

3. I am not saying that weight training is not used in other kung fu styles! LOL

4. I am not saying that weight training should not be used in authentic TCMA t training! LOL

So, my statement is a simple statement. It is clear. However, the concept is not clear as it is an unusual one to start with and it is unknown to people who have not had access to genuine kung fu schools and/or others who have spent their lives jumping from one MA to another (sometimes even contradicting styles) and because they had done "kung fu" along the way, mistakenly think that they know all there is to know and that if they haven't heard of a certain TCMA methodology then they can just go ahead and dispute, criticize and ridicule the person who brings it up, even chasing away new posters who are ACTUAL traditionalists.



Sorry for the long post.

HW108

We're on a Kung Fu Forum: FORUM. Welcome to it.

You know, sometimes I am not too sure.

HW108

[Frost]

I

Frost running off to play with his Olympic weightraining set, to improve his kung fu, Lol,lol,lol
HW108

Hey be fair I also powerlift

Sorry I fell asleep reading your inane ramblings and waiting for you to say something interesting you really are a good cure for insomnia

and you remind me of all the wantabe guys that came to my masters school looking for the secret techniques convinced that everything David carridine ever starred in was based on reality and that the matrix was real )… we can’t really blame masters for ripping people off when people like this practically beg to be taken to the cleaners

[Frost]

Please don't bother with "hardwork", it is obvious he has very limited CMA training, bases his information on fairy tales, and has really no clue about modern science, physiology, anatomy or training theory

Again, it's like talking to a 5 year old, a retarded 5 year old!

Come on what do you know its not like you have actually been a closed door student of a respected master or anything like that