Originally Posted by
RenDaHai
Ok then,
For the purpose of this discussion its necessary that I am of the opinion Damo had influence on shaolin. If I gave that up early we wouldn't have the opportunity to justify ourselves through debate which in itself is the learning experience.
Ok then, lets ignore Tanlin for the moment
Lets see then, so Damo wasn't real, Shen Hui was a cheat and Hui-neng was obscure...... So does Zen exist at all or is it also just made up in retrospect by a bunch of cheaters? You see, when you discredit everything, it doesn't make any sense. Zen is real and is an AWESOME philosophy. So someone who created this line of thinking had to be a pretty imposing person or people. People worthy of legend. Some AMAZING people MUST have existed for Chan to have been passed down. Why would they have made up legends about a load of made up people if the REAL legends existed (which for us to have zen today they must have). It is only Logical that SOME of the people in this lineage are real.
When we acknowledge the above we must also know that as Zen Masters they themselves would not have been complete cheaters and would have passed down a somewhat accurate lineage. Told to them by their masters. ---For example my Shi Ye is 90 years old. He tells stories of his master all the time. If when I am 70 I repeat these stories to my disciples those stories will have already covered 120 or more years. And they will only be 2nd hand. In 710 the story is complete and Damo maybe died about 540... 170 years is not so long in lineages of old masters.
So actually I think early Chan Masters would have had a problem with too much embellishment. If we have Chan today and Chan is awesome, then these people must have been awesome to have given it to us. They may have exagerrated, but they would have kept the sacred knowledge sacred. We know for a fact Zen isn't a cheat, it is a real and precious thing, so its early lineage holders must have been precious also. They wouldn't make it all up.
Do you see what I mean?
@ the rest of your post, Damo may not have been famous enough in his own time for many people to write about. Since we disregard Tanlin then only 1 contempary record exists at all. If 5 existed and none said he was at shaolin then that would be something, but if only 1 survived at all it says nothing. In fact it may support him being at shaolin.... If he was in other places more external records should exist, if he stayed in shaolin its easy to see how no external records exist and the internal records could be gone.
Anyone who meditates has many places they do it, thats a fact. I don't put any stock in the cave being an actual location though, but it could be and I see nothing to the contrary. But that is of little importance.
Shaolin Gong Fu is a fusion of Chan and Wu. So if Damo genuinly had influence on Chan then he influenced Shaolin Gong Fu.