Incorporating Ground Fighting in Shaolin

[LFJ]

...but to offer something a little more demonstrative, this posture (action) is from Shaolin Xiaoluohanquan, one set I chose to specialize in with my Shifu and study in great detail. I've turned it on the side so you can get a perspective of how the same principles apply on the ground.

The name of the action is "Arhat Flips Through the Book" (Chin.: Luóhàn Fān Shū 罗汉翻书), it is so named due to the action of the hands resembling flipping pages of a book (left hand pulls in, right hand out [or down & up on your back] [Chinese books opened right to left]), but also because of the ditang application.

Fān 翻 literally means "to turn/flip over" and it is in fact a variation of a roll escape over the left shoulder. If you are familiar with the trapping principles of such maneuvers and have a little imagination, you can see where this is going:

[LaRoux]

...but to offer something a little more demonstrative, this posture (action) is from Shaolin Xiaoluohanquan, one set I chose to specialize in with my Shifu and study in great detail. I've turned it on the side so you can get a perspective of how the same principles apply on the ground.

The name of the action is "Arhat Flips Through the Book" (Chin.: Luóhàn Fān Shū 罗汉翻书), it is so named due to the action of the hands resembling flipping pages of a book (left hand pulls in, right hand out [or down & up on your back] [Chinese books opened right to left]), but also because of the ditang application.

Fān 翻 literally means "to turn/flip over" and it is in fact a variation of a roll escape over the left shoulder. If you are familiar with the trapping principles of such maneuvers and have a little imagination, you can see where this is going:

Both of those images could either be effective or an invitation to get one's arm broken, depending on the context of what the other person's position is.

Proposing those images of what to do on the ground is a perfect example of how not knowing anything about ground fighting will probably get one into trouble. They are also good examples of why using forms for fighting applications is so bad.

[Shaolin]

Actions speak louder than words...

So you're judging my skill based on videos you've watched of my 6-10 year old students competing at a local open forms competition? That's logical.

If you are familiar with the trapping principles of such maneuvers and have a little imagination, you can see where this is going:

I see exactly where it's going.

If inside the guard it's easily getting passed to a better position.

If in side control the extended arm is getting used in an arm triangle or the tucked arm put into an americana but could also go into a kimura.

If in full mount, tons of subs. Opponent is pretty f'd.

The position is very vulnerable, even against a BJJ white belt. Now take that BJJ white belt and add strikes to the mix and one could be in a great deal of trouble.



You never answered my questions, what is your BJJ experience? Who is/was your coach/s?

[LFJ]

lol... I thought it woud be obvious that this is not a "lying on your back with arms extended waiting for the opponent to do whatever they please" posture. It's from the boxing set, turned on its side, and not showing the opponent.

From mount defense, the left arm is trapping the opponents right arm against your body so they can't brace when flipped, while the left leg hooks on the same side, and the right arm is hooking around the opponent's back for leveraging the turn. That's a standard trap and roll escape in BJJ, probably the most common and first you learn. There are other variations from the closed guard position with the hands doing other things, depending on the position of the opponent, that can easily turn into triangles, arm bars, or escapes to standing.

As far as using forms for fighting applications, that's what they are, a library of techniques. In BJJ there are hundreds of techniques and you practice the same movements solo as you would apply. It's practicing form.

[LFJ]

So you're judging my skill based on videos you've watched of my 6-10 year old students competing at a local open forms competition? That's logical.

Didn't say anything about your skill, just your experience. You clearly got your forms from VCDs.

You never answered my questions, what is your BJJ experience? Who is/was your coach/s?

Experience in this topic only matters if you're trying to make a claim that one style is better than another, which you were doing with BJJ vs Shaolin. That always depends on the practitioner and their experience/skill level, so it's a stupid argument that I didn't take part in anyway. Commenting on what a style includes is valid even from a non-martial artist who simply takes a look.

[Frost]

lol... I thought it woud be obvious that this is not a "lying on your back with arms extended waiting for the opponent to do whatever they please" posture. It's from the boxing set, turned on its side, and not showing the opponent.

From mount defense, the left arm is trapping the opponents right arm against your body so they can't brace when flipped, while the left leg hooks on the same side, and the right arm is hooking around the opponent's back for leveraging the turn. That's a standard trap and roll escape in BJJ, probably the most common and first you learn. There are other variations from the closed guard position with the hands doing other things, depending on the position of the opponent, that can easily turn into triangles, arm bars, or escapes to standing.

As far as using forms for fighting applications, that's what they are, a library of techniques. In BJJ there are hundreds of techniques and you practice the same movements solo as you would apply. It's practicing form.

its not a trap and roll escape, its a bridge escape, something you will not be able to do from that position because you need both feet on the ground to bridge anyone with a little BJJ knowledge will be able to tell you exactly why you cant brige in that position and why you dont reach round the back to push as you bridge

[LFJ]

its not a trap and roll escape, its a bridge escape, something you will not be able to do from that position because you need both feet on the ground to bridge anyone with a little BJJ knowledge will be able to tell you exactly why you cant brige in that position and why you dont reach round the back to push as you bridge

Yup, I did say it's a roll over the shoulder. Can't do that without bridging. Call it what you want. Keep in mind this is not a position, but an action which you can't see from a drawing of an upright position turned on its side. The right arm is around the opponent's opposite side and pushing up and over as you bridge and roll over the shoulder to the knees. That's why it appears to be "reaching" out.

[Frost]

Yup, I did say it's a roll over the shoulder. Can't do that without bridging. Call it what you want. Keep in mind this is not a position, but an action which you can't see from a drawing of an upright position turned on its side. The right arm is around the opponent's opposite side and pushing up and over as you bridge and roll over the shoulder to the knees. That's why it appears to be "reaching" out.

ok so how exactly are you going to bridge up and over with 1 leg in the air and the other raised up on its heel? and yyou think its a good idea to reach up and around your opponent as you bridge?

This is the problem with this type of thing, people take upright positions try to make them work on the ground and in doing so miss fundermental basics out

[LFJ]

ok so how exactly are you going to bridge up and over with 1 leg in the air and the other raised up on its heel? and yyou think its a good idea to reach up and around your opponent as you bridge?

This is the problem with this type of thing, people take upright positions try to make them work on the ground and in doing so miss fundermental basics out

Let me repeat that this is a standing picture turned on it's side, so it is not going to look exactly as it would on the ground. Postures in forms are often exaggerated as well. So don't take the picture so literally. Of course both feet will be on the ground for the bridge. There is a hook with the left knee open in there though. Also it's not taking an upright position and trying to make it work on the ground. It's an action with the same basic principles being applied in different situations. Shaolin does this all the time.

The right arm starts close holding the opponent with the purpose of staying tight on them so there's no room to raise up or get out. Then as the turn begins, if you don't extend and aim your arm in the direction of the turn you will lack leverage for the flip to get over to your knees.

[LaRoux]

lol... I thought it woud be obvious that this is not a "lying on your back with arms extended waiting for the opponent to do whatever they please" posture. It's from the boxing set, turned on its side, and not showing the opponent.

From mount defense, the left arm is trapping the opponents right arm against your body so they can't brace when flipped, while the left leg hooks on the same side, and the right arm is hooking around the opponent's back for leveraging the turn. That's a standard trap and roll escape in BJJ, probably the most common and first you learn. There are other variations from the closed guard position with the hands doing other things, depending on the position of the opponent, that can easily turn into triangles, arm bars, or escapes to standing.

As far as using forms for fighting applications, that's what they are, a library of techniques. In BJJ there are hundreds of techniques and you practice the same movements solo as you would apply. It's practicing form.

Extending one arm like that is an invitation to get one's arm broken when a person is mounted, whether or not you are using the other hand to trap the person's arm. Also, like Frost said, you need both feet on the ground to bridge the person over.

In BJJ, you don't simply pull applications out of a library. You pull applications out of what you learn by working in positional contexts with your partners. This is completely different than the incorrect way you are going about trying to pull applications out of forms.

[LaRoux]

Let me repeat that this is a standing picture turned on it's side, so it is not going to look exactly as it would on the ground. Postures in forms are often exaggerated as well. So don't take the picture so literally. Of course both feet will be on the ground for the bridge. There is a hook with the left knee open in there though. Also it's not taking an upright position and trying to make it work on the ground. It's an action with the same basic principles being applied in different situations. Shaolin does this all the time.

The reason you can't use a standing picture and turn it on its side to demonstrate a ground technique is because exact details matter on the ground. The ground is often a game of millimeters.

The right arm starts close holding the opponent with the purpose of staying tight on them so there's no room to raise up or get out. Then as the turn begins, if you don't extend and aim your arm in the direction of the turn you will lack leverage for the flip to get over to your knees.

You never extend the arm in a bridge and roll escape (although that is the natural tendency for novices) because it will still get you arm barred even after the roll begins.

[LaRoux]

The "victim" fell to the ground because he was getting the sh!t stabbed out of him, not because of a grappling takedown.

So your knife defense strategy is to grapple the attacker's arm to "mitigate the potential force of the knife"? And when the knife suddenly, and undetectably switches hands and continues stabbing you from another side?

If you chase the knife hand like that, you've done nothing to stop the attacker. Mitigate the potential force all you want, you'll still be stabbed to death.

That's what grappling will do for you in a real fight.

The knife attacker almost always has the goal of holding on and controlling while he cuts. Not understanding that you will have to grapple, even if you don't want to, simply makes the attackers job easier.

[LFJ]

Extending one arm like that is an invitation to get one's arm broken when a person is mounted, whether or not you are using the other hand to trap the person's arm. Also, like Frost said, you need both feet on the ground to bridge the person over.

Good grief, read the description in the last few posts please.

The arm is not extended to the opponent at all. It is in fact holding tightly with a deep hook onto the opponent so there is no space between you for them to even be able to pull any arm lock. And both feet are on the ground in the bridge, but the left leg makes a hook with an open knee, which during the turn makes this shape. The left foot and knee will reach the ground and the right leg follows.

The problem is simply that this is not a picture of the action on the ground, so you shouldn't take it so literally. The posture is actually what your body moves through with the action underway. It is dynamic.

It is a standing picture turned sideways though, and was posted merely for perspective. I would have assumed you'd have a little more imagination than to think this is a dead defensive posture waiting for the opponent to pick his moves.

In BJJ, you don't simply pull applications out of a library. You pull applications out of what you learn by working in positional contexts with your partners. This is completely different than the incorrect way you are going about trying to pull applications out of forms.

Are you saying BJJ doesn't in fact have hundreds of standard techniques that they even give names to and practice in solo drills and partner application, and you just pull nifty moves out of your ass as you roll around?

Of course fighting is freeform and forms are not meant to be applied as stiff sequences. That's not the way it's done in Shaolin either.

[LFJ]

The reason you can't use a standing picture and turn it on its side to demonstrate a ground technique is because exact details matter on the ground. The ground is often a game of millimeters.

Apparently it's because I'm discussing it with folks who lack any imagination and common sense to realize the adjustments to the action when standing vs lying down, or dynamic action vs static pictures... I wasn't expecting you'd be that dull here.

You never extend the arm in a bridge and roll escape (although that is the natural tendency for novices) because it will still get you arm barred even after the roll begins.

No. The arms in the action I've been describing work just like either of these two videos show. This is a pretty basic and standard trap, bridge, and roll escape, however you like to call it. Extending the arm is essential for the leverage in this technique to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lliV8tf2PUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hbtfwu6Uhc

[LaRoux]

Good grief, read the description in the last few posts please.

The arm is not extended to the opponent at all. It is in fact holding tightly with a deep hook onto the opponent so there is no space between you for them to even be able to pull any arm lock. And both feet are on the ground in the bridge, but the left leg makes a hook with an open knee, which during the turn makes this shape. The left foot and knee will reach the ground and the right leg follows.

The problem is simply that this is not a picture of the action on the ground, so you shouldn't take it so literally. The posture is actually what your body moves through with the action underway. It is dynamic.

Again, that shows the problem of turning a standing position on its side to demonstrate ground techniques. The details of the image are mostly wrong.

It is a standing picture turned sideways though, and was posted merely for perspective. I would have assumed you'd have a little more imagination than to think this is a dead defensive posture waiting for the opponent to pick his moves.

Then why not grab an image of an actual Shaolin ground technique instead? That way you will not be showing incorrect methods. Instead of posting standing technique images flipped on the side, post one that shows the ground technique you are talking about.

Are you saying BJJ doesn't in fact have hundreds of standard techniques that they even give names to and practice in solo drills and partner application, and you just pull nifty moves out of your ass as you roll around?

Of course fighting is freeform and forms are not meant to be applied as stiff sequences. That's not the way it's done in Shaolin either.

BJJ has hundreds or thousands of techniques with are learned in context with a partner. The basic principle of learning these techniques are to learn each with a compliant partner and then immediately use them in sparring situations against non-compliant partners. BJJ has no forms, per se.