Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[cerebus]

Yeah, Youtube is a great resource. I especially love all the older stuff from the '70s & further back.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Ahh, going back to the old system of training, eh? Renegade! Traditionalist!

Don't you know that by observing the tradition of of training in technique you are contributing to the "classical mess" and ruining decades of improvement in showmanship for the rest of us? Have you not learned by now that the old way of doing things is useless and must be discarded? How can anyone judge you if you do not do sets with long pauses to show off your form?

I'm leaving.

are you searious ? or Just trying to be funny? I am not sure, that is why I asking.

[CharlesDaCosta]

For those of you with training in the systems of Kung Fu derived from the "Tibetan Lion's Roar" system, if you could choose only 3 empty-hand fist sets which exemplified your system, which 3 would you choose (which do you consider to be the most "essential", and why)?

I was taught that the 4 pillars of Pak Hok are: Diamond Fists, Lohan, Kom li sau, Needle in cotton.

They are supose to be the core system. I would prefer others as the answer but - who am I.

[CharlesDaCosta]

HOWEVER, I believe that the other hand MUST protect the face/jaw/chin so you will NOT see the "flailing"

The flailing is training to help you develop a good twist. If you allready have that then it is not needed, and in a real ... fight it is not to be used unless it is pulling your enemy.

[jdhowland]

are you searious ? or Just trying to be funny? I am not sure, that is why I asking.

I'm never serious when I rant, but sometimes I do it to make a point. My silly response was to a post made by someone who I knew would understand it. There were no classical lama sets 150 years ago. They were developed as a response to the martial school culture of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[jdhowland]

The flailing is training to help you develop a good twist. If you allready have that then it is not needed, and in a real ... fight it is not to be used unless it is pulling your enemy.

Nice. I was taught the same.

[PM]

quick question: was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?

[jdhowland]

...was Hap Ga/lama paai/baak hok called Fat Ga in the past as well?

A good question. I doubt anyone can really answer it since a lack of historical evidence cannot prove a negative statement. As far as I know, no one in my lines ever made the connection. The early recorded names are si hao and lama kyuhn.

Some points to ponder: Fut Ga does seem to have been used generically for "Buddhist" styles. The fact that there are several Faht Ga systems with no clear relationship to one another supports this idea. The Faht Ga I have seen in the U.S. has no evident relationship to lama boxing. Choy Lei Faht may have been considered one of the Faht Ga systems and it has some techniques in common with lama kyuhn. And, of course, some branches of Hung Kyuhn show lama influence from Wong Yen Lum. Could it be that they were all "Fat Ga Kyuhn" based on the idea that they have similar origin myths of being passed down within Buddhist temples before they were adopted by various militia movements?

[CharlesDaCosta]

I'm never serious when I rant, but sometimes I do it to make a point. My silly response was to a post made by someone who I knew would understand it. There were no classical lama sets 150 years ago. They were developed as a response to the martial school culture of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

OK, and what you say about the development of routines sounds very logical.

[CharlesDaCosta]

... I doubt anyone can really answer it since a lack of historical evidence cannot prove a negative statement. As far as I know, no one in my lines ever made the connection. The early recorded names are si hao and lama kyuhn.

Some points to ponder: Fut Ga does seem to have been used generically for "Buddhist" styles. The fact that there are several Faht Ga systems with no clear relationship to one another supports this idea. The Faht Ga I have seen in the U.S. has no evident relationship to lama boxing. Choy Lei Faht may have been considered one of the Faht Ga systems and it has some techniques in common with lama kyuhn. And, of course, some branches of Hung Kyuhn show lama influence from Wong Yen Lum. Could it be that they were all "Fat Ga Kyuhn" based on the idea that they have similar origin myths of being passed down within Buddhist temples before they were adopted by various militia movements?

I was told that the Lama style had many different names; it had even been addressed as the "No name style."

While I was in China, I was given the impression that the name "Monk's Style" (FG) was used by some, to describe a non-Shaolin Buddhists style. My coach, on the Mainland called my style (pak hok) CLF. I keep trying to tell him they are two different systems. He gave me the impression that to mainlanders what I do is CLF or FG. So ....

Now I except that they are from the same system.

I have also herd that CLF was considered to be the Imperial style. I am waiting to find another CLF stylist to confirm this history. If this is true, then both PH and CLF claim to be imperial styles of Buddhist origins. That would make it even easier for me to accept the possibility that they (FG, PH, HG, ...) come from the same system.

[jdhowland]

I was told that the Lama style had many different names; it had even been addressed as the "No name style."

I was told that lama Sing Lung never named his system. It was others who called it "lama boxing."

One thing to consider is that when you become a buddhist monk you discard your family name and take a new dharma name. This was convienient for those who wanted to hide from authorities because it made them nearly impossible to trace.

This also means that kung fu men in this situation could not call their systems by a family name. It might become simply "Faht Ga" by default.

Now I accept that they are from the same system.

Yeah, probably is some connection there based on the structural similarities and some common terminology.

Unless someone comes up with historical evidence showing who Choy Fok and "Goldhook" Li really were there is not much chance of getting a definitive answer. They probably weren't the only men teaching northern styles in Gwangdung. I'm also open to the idea that Chan Heung may have modified his system in his later years, enough to change its basic character.

Too bad I can't find new parts for my time machine!

[Gru Bianca]

Too bad there are zero info about Sing Long, where he was from originally so on so forth, cause at the temple there is no mention of him anywhere in the genealogy chart.

Also, in regards to the CLF and Lama "connection", I read once in a Chinese text that Chan Heung's uncle had spent time at the same temple of Sing Long.

[jdhowland]

Hi, Gru Bianca! Good to hear from you. I had hoped you would join this discussion.

Too bad there are zero info about Sing Long, where he was from originally so on so forth, cause at the temple there is no mention of him anywhere in the genealogy chart.

I have come to feel that there is almost nothing reliably known about him except that he existed and taught in different places. The tradition that he traveled through northern China with four disciples sounds much like the tradition of "five ancestors" found in various societies. The descriptions of him as an abbot may have been to increase his status after his death. Some fighting monks did enter the philosophical and meditational colleges of the monastic universities and become teachers and lamas eventually. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he took refuge for other reasons and his identity was changed to keep his activities secret.

Also, in regards to the CLF and Lama "connection", I read once in a Chinese text that Chan Heung's uncle had spent time at the same temple of Sing Long.

If that was Chan Yuen Wu, I would expect him to be a bit older than Sing Long. Some people say it was Choy Fok who stayed there. Either way it could indicate a family connection with the temple and maybe there was a peculiar system of kung fu passed on by teachers in that area.

To get back to the original question in this thread: Gru, do you have favorite sets or training methods from Bak Hok Pai?

[Gru Bianca]

In the book of the temple that I have there is mentioned a story of a certain Shen long which it is said to be born from a Zhong Family in Panyu (Guangzhou) and to be a "Shaolin" master.. The story of this person's identity is true as it is taken from an official record, however the characteres used for his name are of a different variation compared to the mostly seen in the story of the style.


In my limited experience I'd say all the Kam Gong and Lo Hon sets and of course Min Loy Cham done contestually to "another set" to boost a certain type of energy.
For power development surely the Siji Hou lek.

Regards
Luca

[TenTigers]

chut yap bo, because it has long range, short range, turning, spinning,
oh, and cause it's the only set I know...