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Thread: Five Ancestors: Wuzhuquan/Ngo Cho Kuen

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by wu-ji View Post
    You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.

    Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.

    It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.
    Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.
    http://www.konghanusa.com/

  3. #123
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    Wu Jia

    Im not a student of Uncle Bill ....but I was a student of one of his senior here in Canada.....I trained with Uncle when he came to Canada for visits every years....in fact I was his driver here

    In kuntao silat and also serak silat or tjimande the entry is the footwork ....the triangle principles ...whats we call langkas tiga...other style used this pattern also like the filipino MA(pekiti tirsia I talk the style I know)

    In fact Uncle Bill used mostly the pakua chang ....different of the chinese pakua but some similaritie....I think the Kuntao style of SE Asia keep the fighting or warrior way....

    The triangle step is sometime very subtle ...look like a direct entry in straight line

    I agree the jurus of silat look a lot like the Ngo cho kun ....

    Nice to talk with you

    Steeve

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Laukarbo View Post
    Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.
    I posted this list in a previous posting above:


    It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):

    - Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
    - Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
    - There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.

    Recommendations are based on personal acquaintance or recommendations of acquaintances.

    There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions. These include (there could be more):

    - Bonifacio Lim (Beng Kiam)- NJ area
    - Ben Asuncion (Beng Kiam) - LA, CA area
    - Mark Wiley (Bengkiam) - CO area if I am not mistaken.
    - Jose Parman (I forgot) - San Jose, CA area
    - John Graham (Chee Kim Tong) - Mobile, AL (more of his students in AL area)
    - Kenneth Lim in VA area. He advertises more as a Wing Chun and Hokkian Eng Chun styles, but one of his teachers is from Gui In Lam lineage.
    - Kam Lee (A Malaysian lineage that I forgot) in FL
    - Lo Ban Teng group as represented by Lo Siauw Gok's lineage is ready to start teaching in USA. Lo Hak Lun, Lo Siauw Gok's son states that hopefully it will happen in less than a year.

    It is unethical for me to comment on Bonifacio Lim's skills since I am from a different lineage and I do not know him personally. However, I can say that Alex Cho represents the "standard" of Beng Kiam. So, any good masters from Beng Kiam should move similarly to him. His videos are publicly available for purchase (I am not commercially related to him and don't benefit from the purchase). You can just google "alex cho ngo cho kun" to find them.

    Daniel Kun, Bonifacio Lim, Ben Asuncion, and John Graham just met in Alabama in September. Kam Lee and the dormant person were also invited, but could not make it.
    Last edited by wu-ji; 12-10-2007 at 10:30 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Thanks Laukarbo. A question for you. Being from a Hung Gar background, how do you like crosstraining in Ngo Cho Kune?
    no problem,
    I have to say I still learn,practise and teach Hung Kuen...
    but since I live in Manila/Chinatown I have a big access to Ngo Cho Kun..
    I was really curious about the style..to ur question I just recently started and learned Sam chien and my limited knowledge about ngo cho kun only tells me so far that the style really compliments hung fist. Its a good addition for short distance fighting,and learning short power generation...
    Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Laukarbo View Post
    Btw,I think sam chien is not really compareble to Tit sin kuen..feels very different but like I said I just learned sam chien and its all new to me..all in all I think that both styles dont bite each other
    Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by wu-ji View Post
    Tian Te Lin Chien will feel more similar to Tit Sin Kuen. They actually share the same elements and purpose. The Philippines lineages don't emphasize that much pressure and tension as compared to Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar lineages. Some lineages, like the Lo Ban Teng lineages from Indonesia have strong emphasis on the tension.

    thanks for the info...
    very interesting.

  9. #129
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    Wu ji are you a ngo cho player.....Men you have a lot of informations

    From what I heard and read a lot of chinese MA from the SE Asia is call Kuntao
    A generic term (hokkien)Does the Ngo Cho kuen have some influenced coming from Filipino kali , indonesian silat or malaysian bersilat ?

    and also maybe the NGo Cho have influenced some of this style?


    Laukarbo ...the Hung kuen from GM Lao Kim have influenced a lot the Lapunti Arnis De abaniko of Carbunay...Do you train from this lineage (Lao Kim)?

    Steeve

  10. #130
    I have received a full permission from my teacher to open my own school years ago after more than 13 years of training. However, I do not have time to teach now due to my activities. With work and family, I can only spare time for personal training.

    We (NCKers) also have rather an international network. So, we can share and pass information easily.

    Kun Tao is the fujian (min an) dialect for Quan Dao, the way of the fist. There is an intertwining relationship between Fujian arts and SE "native" arts. Some Fujian masters taught local people, some have to use it for a self-defense, some make a good relationship with the locals and change knowledge, ..., and some people just steal, imitate, then claim an "indigenous" invention. Some steal from watching, some steal because of fighting interaction (when you fight someone, you can also learn his movements). Not pointing fingers to anyone or start a flame, but this is the fact. Some Silat lineages are very respectable and very independent of Fujian influence, some have a strong influence and admit it, some have the influence and don't admit it.

    The point is not about stealing. MA adapts. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Because it is needed (for self-defense), Fujian arts in SE Asia grows. Silat follows the same story and also grows.

  11. #131
    By the way, just to share a little bit about Fujianese martial culture.

    No self-respectable Fujianese master ever calls himself sifu or master in the first person. It is just a part of the humbleness culture. They usually rather be called "ah cek" (or uncle), just like Uncle Bill. The term "suhu" (sifu) or "sinshe" (learned man, or master) is usually used by a 2nd person who respects the master. Another example is Daniel Kun, a Kong Han master residing in Vancouver, BC. He prefers to be called coach Daniel by his students. The general idea is it is not culturally accepted to self-promote: let praise (if any) comes from another persons. Another consequence of this culture is usually an excellent master does not advertise. They never boast about their own skills and they let other people see it as is. So, students need to be convinced by the master's reputation, and not by self-promotion. Students are expected to trust and pursue the knowledge. Teaching environment is usually much more informal with a lot of personal interactions. This is especially true for the indoor students whose interactions with their teachers are more like family.


    So, I am very sure there are NCK masters in North America that just hide there.

    My new favorite saying: "Work kills kung fu.
    Last edited by wu-ji; 12-11-2007 at 01:12 PM.

  12. #132
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    Interesting what you write

    What I think is mostly all Chinese M.a(kuntao) practice in SE asia are the old style(village style) ....I mean came from immigrate master before the classification of the style with names for each styles like today....This old style was simple with probably less of 10 forms maybe less ....and 3 or 4 weapons

    All native system ...like silat have been influenced by some Kuntao ...

    the Fukien are mostly the White crane players...(southern)...Does the wing chun ,southern mantis and Fujian white crane have the same roots? like the pak mei and dragon (lung ying )have the same root? What Do you thing

    Sorry my english is not very good ...sometime im probably hard to follow

  13. #133
    No worries about English. I am also a non-native speaker.

    The number of forms is never a good measure. Forms can be short or can be long. The contents are what's more important. Students of the arts need to digest it to experience (not just to understand) the fighting theories and methods of the arts.

    No NCK lineages share identical movements on the forms. Forms can be created as necessary to assist students to understand the arts. Other than the aforementioned fighting methods and theories, forms also contain logical sequences that are the "wisdom of experiences" from those who created the forms. Hence, forms without the duida (counterform) has a lesser value. Practiced solo, forms are also an aid for power generation, precision, and speed training. However, forms training, even with the duida, is not sufficient. Without various degrees of sparring practices, proper timing and distance calculation cannot be developed.

    Respectively, masters of the arts can have different philosophy in teaching. Some prefer short, but plenty, forms. Some prefer more condensed, but fewer, forms. Some goes from simple to more complex forms.

    My personal beliefs is that high-level martial arts look similar in fighting. The training methods can be different, but human body only has one body, one head, 2 arms, and 2 legs. Just how many possible combinations can exist and be used efficiently?

    Southern Chinese arts should share similar principles just like Northern Chinese arts do. The principals are very similar, if not identical, but the interpretations could be different and causing variations in training methods.

  14. #134
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    Wu ji

    The duida ....you mean the two men set ? for sure sparring is a necessity....and train the attribute (physical)

    Since we talk about SE asia system

    Muay thai(Kabri Kabrong....weapons thai system) and Bando (burmenese Boxing) or leithwe are really realistic system with a old tradition...and very good training method....

    Steeve

  15. #135
    Yes, duida is the 2-person set.

    From what I researched, old Muay Thai (non-ring) shares many common attributes with the monkey side of NCK. Very nice. NCK also emphasizes limb conditioning to the various degrees. NCK also has weapon trainings (along with the duida sets). But old style weapons become more and more irrelevant for urban life (who's gonna go to the mall and carries a guan dao?). So, it becomes of less interests among the younger generations.

    "Leitai" is also the old name for a match bout in Chinese dialect.

    About "realistic systems." People always say that they want a realistic system, but are they willing to pay for the price? The more realistic it is, the greater is the risk of injuries. Other than pain, it is also downtime for training (for recovery). A good system has a balance between these. In the western world, the matter gets more complicated with the legal issues.

    In the western world, the usage of excessive force in self-defense carries consequences in both jail time and financial terms. Unless, of course, the situation is life threatening. In addition, the procurement of firearms is very easy as well. Martial arts becomes irrelevant for self-defense and suits more the needs of people who want to get exercises or participate in a form of MA competition.

    On the other hand, in SE Asia, where corruptions prevail with the legal systems/enforcement are dubious at best and the procurement of firearms is not easy, MA as a form of self-defense prevails. It is just a matter of necessity. We always joked that supposed we get involved in a sketchy situation yet we still have doubt about the situation, just hit first. Things can be solved later one way or the other.

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