Hardwork = reading your posts!!!
GH
Hardwork = reading your posts!!!
GH
Well for me understanding what I practice is easy!!! Ving Tsun is a simple system full of simple ideas. The hard part is executing it correctly because we are so prone to making mistakes and resorting back to our normal behaviour in a fight.
The big problem with Wing Chun in general are all the idiots that have ruined it!!!. Anybody with an ounce of sense will know that especially after reading some of the posts and ideas on this forum!!!!
GH
Would you call the "idea" of not going back, simple? Or, the idea of "embracing" force?
Yes, you can refer to the directness and "straight" line approach of Wing Chun, as simple, and perhaps they are on paper, but they are really simple when you build the faculties to perform them under pressure and in real time!
What I am saying is that to get to this "simplicity" you will need a lot of complicated training and hard work.
By the way, using the same approach, you will come to notice that there are many other "simple" kung fu styles out there too.
You will find that many other kung fu styles have "simple" techniques and approaches, that is, once you build the necessary faculties.Originally Posted by Graham H
Well, it seems that for once we agree, as that is what I have, in one way, or the other, been saying in this very forum for a long time........Originally Posted by Graham H
Last edited by Hardwork108; 04-08-2011 at 04:42 PM.
I was referring to the concepts and principles of the system. Its not complicated at all!!!Would you call the "idea" of not going back, simple? Or, the idea of "embracing" force?
In training we MUST go back so as our training partner can learn how to come forward correctly and vice versa. It is important that two people co-operate in training. The building of a good training partner is necessary for improvement. Also in an actual fight we must retreat if we are being overwhelmed. Our intention is to forward and deal with obsticles should they be present but going at it like a bull in a china shop is stupid. We go back and find chances. You can see how we train this in this clip with the use of Man Sau.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc
Training is not complicated my friend. If you find your training complicated then you are doing something wrong. Difficult to attain the required skills through hard work but no way complicated.What I am saying is that to get to this "simplicity" you will need a lot of complicated training and hard work.
What other simple styles????
Embracing force??? Whats all that about???
GH
Last edited by Graham H; 04-09-2011 at 05:12 AM.
Going back isn't easily done either, staying facing, knees ,hips, elbows all meeting the incoming force. The Seung ma toi ma in the clip first posted shows the beginning of force exchange to prepare for the shifting facing and meeting force from no pre-contact, ie you dont get loss of balance, turned facing etc...opening your flanks up as PB shows at the beginning of the clip GH posted.
Chum Kil form teaches facing, mobility, body weight momentum, Seung ma toi ma drills utilize the angling and shifting in contact to maintain distances to strike at all times with sufficient force to ko. We train not to lean forwards , backwards sideways, and stay solid IN MOTION fighting with punches. When you touch a VT fighter it feels like you met a moving mountain of force, with hands like lightning...Philipp
IMHO, things like the central line theory and the straight line approach are not complicated, but to use them successfully in combat one needs a "little bit" of complicated training, including the softness and fine tuned "sensitivity" and "listening" abilities.
Also, the fact that in my lineage we are discouraged from going back, introduces more "complications". We also train Iron Palm and Iron Body, which are not "simple", by no means.
There is vaidity in what you say. In our school however, one learns how to go forward by actually overwhelming his opponent, who ultimately becomes unable to sustain his position.
I agree, but the not going back of both training partners is actually assists both individuals in finding ways through, without giving ground.
I believe that you have misunderstood the kung fu concept of not going back. It has nothing to do with standing there and exchanging blows. It has everything to do with interceting and closing down your opponent, using sensitivity and softness to find a way through and neutralize him with a couple of moves.
As I mentioned before, this concept is not just a concept taught to me by my WC sifu but also by Chow Gar one. Of course, both of these styles have significantly different approaches in dealing with incoming force, but revealingly they share their strategy of not going back.
I believe that any serious kung fu student should research this aspect very carefully as IMHO, more than one "secret" of kung fu is embedded within this approach.
Thank you for posting the clip.
Our approach was completely different. We only go back, and that is ONE step, to recover our centeral lines. We do not go back as a course of strategy.
To avoid misunderstandings, let me give you an example of how I was taught to deal with the same type of attack you see on 0:15. Instead of going back with a pak, I would make a 45 degree step forward the outside of my opponent's left side. My "to be" trapped arm would turn into Tan Sao (or tan/lap combination), while my right fist would target the left side of the opponent's neck.
I am not sure if what I say is clear, but please practice it with partner, and see if it makes sense to you. It may even be a good idea to not tell your partner about what you are about to do.
I see your point, but to get the softness; fine-tuned "sensitivity" and the "listening" abilities required for one to not go back when others are overwhelmed, is not a simple matter, and that is proven that many people here have misunderstood me whenever I have talked about these aspects of TCMAs.
I said "simple", meaning direct and perhaps simple looking, but complicated styles, such as Chow Gar, Southern Praying Mantis.
Well, one of the things it is about is not letting it push you back. However, to embrace force one will need a "little bit" of complicated training/understanding to be able to avoid being overwhelmed by it, through using (borrowing) it to overwhelm the opponent.
Again, going back to Philipp Bayer. I am not taking anything away from him, as he seems very skilled and talented. All I am just saying that in my lineage we are trained NOT go back, and that this is a valid kung fu strategy that we share with other styles of Kung Fu.
Last edited by Hardwork108; 04-09-2011 at 05:26 PM.
Have you ever actually sparred with a non-cooperating boxer, Muay Thai or MMA guy? Not your buddy who did any of those for six months and then switched to your school as it is superior, and teaches ancient secrets, and iron palm training, and to listen, and sensitivity, and sooooftness, and feeeeeeling....
It's simple: A person with actual ring experience knows that you have to be able to move back to control distance, to control the situation. Believing that your secret strategy of not going back will work most of the times is simply Fantasy-Fu.
There are too many assumptions and fantasies floating around. A week of sparring with experienced boxers is a wonderful cure for that!
The kung fu strategy I talk about is about fighting for real. It is applicable for sparring, but at the end of the day it is to close down the adversary and finish him, before he manages to pull a weapon on you, or before his friends show up.
From our school's point of view, allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by incoming force and hence going back, will enable your opponent to run you over (worst case scenario), or to delay the encounter enough to turn it into a "sparring" match, and that is something you don't want in the street.
What I am talking about was not invented by me, as it is a valid TCMA approach. Perhaps you you should research into it and figure out the mindset, logic and the specialized TCMA skills required for this kind of approach?
PS. Our Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun practices Iron Palm as part of its curriculum. IP is a valid TCMA methodology and so are the high level skills of fine tuned softness, "listening" and sensitivity.
You may want to research the above, instead of ridiculing and putting them down!
Last edited by Hardwork108; 04-09-2011 at 04:56 PM.
Ive been involved in er several fights ...movement is your friend.
being solid and fluid during a fight ie balanced.
I can stop from being moved back in chi-sao with a partner who delivers force to prove my positions. IE I use my inward elbow to centerline and shut it down with structure , hips etc... BUT I wouldnt fight like this or waddle around in a basic stance to try and emulate the same effect in a barfight, but thats me