New Philipp Bayer clip

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088888]

Joy,

You are right. I might not know what I am talking about since I have never met WSL or Fong as you do.

Perhaps, put it as the following better express my view.
observing the Triangle Drilling momentum of WSL solution vesus Fong's linear momentum ; one is like the rock drilling machine and one is like a windmill. both are great however there are pro and con's: facing a triangle drilling machine or windmill. that is where I based my opinion in. so it is not WSL or Fong but the triangle drilling or windmill which I am focusing on.

Hendrik-you have no idea whether rock drilling exits in Fong wing chun or not. Not an uncommon problem in trusting your eyes.

joy

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088904]

Hendrik-you have no idea whether rock drilling exits in Fong wing chun or not. Not an uncommon problem in trusting your eyes.

joy

Joy,

May be you are right. and you have a great point which I am open with for my view is not the only way.


However, observing at the momentum dynamic habitual level of Fong, WSL, P.B.....etc

I would say the method is different and the conditioning is different; thus the art or Habitual response of both party are different.


as in the following


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNrY...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ui6r...feature=relmfu

WSL is robing center door like a dynamic drill. Fong is staying in center door like a windmill. These two type of habitual momentum signatures seems to represent the two groups.

also, see how WSL let the coming momentum passed at the same time cut it where Fong is using his structure to handle the coming momentum.




So, hopefully, we could discussing solid technical to see different pro and cons. also, there are pro and cons on every habitual signature, thus, as the requirement of SLT practice which said "every points must be crystal clear" we could clearly knows the pro and cons of every points.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088915][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088904]



Joy,

May be you are right. and you have a great point which I am open with for my view is not the only way.


However, observing at the momentum dynamic habitual level of Fong, WSL, P.B.....etc

-------------------------------------------
Hi Hendrik- "observing"?? Perception is a complex process. Yours is your own.

Joy

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088919][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088915]

Joy,

May be you are right. and you have a great point which I am open with for my view is not the only way.


However, observing at the momentum dynamic habitual level of Fong, WSL, P.B.....etc

-------------------------------------------
Hi Hendrik- "observing"?? Perception is a complex process. Yours is your own.

Joy

Joy,

As you know,


motion is independent of perception. habit is a repeatable act. so, using motion/momentum and habit could actually observe the physical facts.


if the WCner cant get passed the boundary of self-center and using independent variable such as motion, momentum... to discuss technical issue then there is no hope for further development. IMHO.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088920][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088919][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088915]



Joy,

As you know,


motion is independent of perception. habit is a repeatable act. so, using motion/momentum and habit could actually observe the physical facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- we are on different frequencies. No problem.

I am referring to your "perception" of motion by watching a you tube video- not the motion itself.

You are entitled to your perception.

Years ago when you are talking about CLF versus WC in your house: on the far side of your large "living room"- when we touched hands I moved. As I recall you were surprised and said something like that the move came after long years of practice. True in part but the move was a triangle drilling move.

But memories can fade or get distorted over time.

When it comes to Fong's structure, you don't know what you are talking about. You are falling into the common trap of comparing things from You tube in quite different contexts.

Joy

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088925][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088920][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088919]

Joy,

As you know,


motion is independent of perception. habit is a repeatable act. so, using motion/momentum and habit could actually observe the physical facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- we are on different frequencies. No problem.

I am referring to your "perception" of motion by watching a you tube video- not the motion itself.

You are entitled to your perception.

Years ago when you are talking about CLF versus WC in your house: on the far side of your large "living room"- when we touched hands I moved. As I recall you were surprised and said something like that the move came after long years of practice. True in part but the move was a triangle drilling move.

But memories can fade or get distorted over time.

When it comes to Fong's structure, you don't know what you are talking about. You are falling into the common trap of comparing things from You tube in quite different contexts.

Joy

Joy,

I dont recall our discussion, but you could be right.



also,
ok. according to you on WSL and Fong, I dont know what I am talking about.

I can accept that view as millions of other views. you can be right.

So, according to you, could you please share with us what is a good representation of Fong method having the same with WSL solution in youtube? that would be interesting to learn from.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088938][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088925][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088920]

Joy,

I dont recall our discussion, but you could be right.

((Difference in memories?))



also,
ok. according to you on WSL and Fong, I dont know what I am talking about.

((I don't think that you do)))

I can accept that view as millions of other views. you can be right.

((Your acceptance is your business, IMO))

So, according to you, could you please share with us what is a good representation of Fong method having the same with WSL solution in youtube? that would be interesting to learn from.

((Master Fong teaches his students first hand. He has no designated"representative neither does Master HKM .You could go to one of Master Fong's seminars in Tucson. On his website there is a schedule specially for this month.. I am not here to sell his views. I just try to correct obvious errors that I see in statements about him.. I have no control over your perceptions of what I said.I let it go at that. Out of respect for WSL I don't critique or compare him him here.))

joy

[Hardwork108]

You know, we dont even have to get here.


Saying what is WCK or what is not and all the reason above really doesnt make sense; that is because that doesnt said anything on momentum handling which is physics and the core of the whole theme.


This analysis can be totally objective if one using the natural of the momentum handling as independent variable.

Take a look at the momentum characteristics and the pro and con is clearly express. Again, that is the reason I keep mention 20Ch 6DFV with the tools we could have an objective view.


So again, what is the pro and con of both technics under the physics of momentum?




For me,

It is very obvious what P.B is using is WSL's Blood and Sweat.

One can see WSL's understanding on the 6DFV, timing, and sensing very well. P.B or others who uses WSL's solution might or might not understand what is it and why is it similar to those who drive a car doesnt know why the car is designed. So, to discuss technically is to get to this level of understanding and discuss its pro and con.


Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.

Your method as you post IMHO cant handle the incoming momentum well even it is technically correct in using the WCK technics combination. so, it is "correct" WCK combination but it is disaster in high speed momentum handling. IMHO. you know why it doesnt work? because you did not considerate or Sense the momentum which come toward you. WCner with 6dfv training will sense the momentum similar to something get into the 6dfv radar screen, its direction, and its speed, and has to deal with it. that is sensing and that is soft. Sensing doesnt means touching soft doesnt mean weak.


Further more, it is not that Man sau or Pak sau, it is the dissolving of in coming momentum and still in the tracking offensive range which is important, that man sau or pak sau or what ever is just a tracking and second insurance, IMHO.


Thus, because we could learn and know the insigh, we can predict win and lost before even the match. that is real kung fu.

Hendrik, some of the stuff you mention may be above my head. I do agree that both approaches will have pros and cons, but my lineage's attitude is that going forward will have less cons and more pros. So the training is geared towards that. That is the only point that I was making. Of course, I did also mention that the same mindset (backed by techniques) was taught in Chow Gar, as well.

[k gledhill]

Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far to easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...tailpage#t=76s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...ailpage#t=352s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...ailpage#t=415s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...ailpage#t=455s

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...ailpage#t=449s

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E...ailpage#t=207s



_

I keep seeing the same clip over n over... it cant be done in clips , if your ever in ny drop by. takes seconds.

[k gledhill]

That's arrogance buddy if I've ever seen it! I was just trying to have a healthy conversation with Hendrick and you drop that line. Why don't you just post a video of yourself already so we can all see it?

I mean literally, you posted the same clip over and over....was that intentional ?
yes it will take seconds to explain with hands on, clips cant do it. As joy said you will see what YOU think i am doing is like you because we share similar shapes , bong, tan, fok...what WE do with it is different development.
I showed a guy from Fongs lineage a couple of months ago while he was in NYC ,the same stuff , he liked it too. Not a secret. Not a death match either, just healthy friendly info exchange. it was new to him too.

[mvbrown21]

You're right Kevin, I'll fix it now

[mvbrown21]

Links are now fixed

I would say the method is different and the conditioning is different; thus the art or Habitual response of both party are different.

WSL is robing center door like a dynamic drill. Fong is staying in center door like a windmill. These two type of habitual momentum signatures seems to represent the two groups.

also, see how WSL let the coming momentum passed at the same time cut it where Fong is using his structure to handle the coming momentum.

Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far too easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ



_

[Hardwork108]

Links are now fixed




Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far too easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ



_

Very "different".......

[k gledhill]

We dont turn to deflect force, we turn to face the direction/position of the partner....no bong deflecting by turning body too. You guys do that a lot and so did I before, so I know the 'chi-sao' thinkng. If you turn your apex point off the partner your only able to use one side to hit. If you face you can strike with 2 continuous attacks in cycles. Bong should be able to deflect as you face sideways to your strike line , bong is the same energy as pak sao only using the forearm from underneath, wrist low elbow high so we can use the forearm as the 'slap' surface. then we rotat elbow back down fast to strike again , thats the cycle in chi-sao bong to tan hit, while the bong is up we strike with jum/fook sao energy to the partners tan strike...elbow versus elbow 'in v out'.

[Graham H]

......@ Matt Brown

If those clips are your idea of Ving Tsun then it shouldn't be hard to convert you if you find your way forward.

Those videos are not good IMO but typical of what is seen in many WCK schools and why I left them before!!!

GH