resistance, withdraw, dissolve

[ErnieWong]

First things first, Yoshiyahu, great replies!! I was expecting that answer as well.

To Hendrik - So if all methods are the same to the ultimate goal, then why post in the Ving Tsun section? Why claim that the Fuk Sau can not dissolve? Isn't that hypocritical? Once you use Ving Tsun to prove that Ving Tsun doesn't have something, you are not pointing at the moon - that ultimate goal. You are trying to see if the path that you have chosen is right.

Like I said before, I think you have a lot of kung fu. Most people here, including me, don't understand you. You could be at a level that we're not on yet, but that means that you are there by yourself. Posing these questions is a means to get people to your level, but you have problems with languaging what you really want.

You could say that I'm narrow minded but I'm only being truthful to my own path of Ving Tsun. I have also started to study Taiji in my spare time but I'm not clouded by the ultimate goals. Sometimes observing the path on my journey is more worthwhile and if I ever achieve a goal, it wasn't by force but naturally. I just like learning and have no qualms with other's paths. I feel "to each their own."

Please don't take this the wrong way - Hendrik.
If you have many Sifus, to find answers, we could say that you are a jack of all trades but a master of none. I know that in today's world you have to make the most of your time to get what you want. But truly dedicating yourself to one thing takes much more endurance and dedication. If you say that you are truly a master of something, then there should be no questions because you've reached your goal. If you aren't a master and constantly change paths to find what you are looking for then you will never reach your goal. Mostly because once you hit a roadblock, you change paths and never stay long enough to understand why your path was obstructed.

(Only my Opinions below.)
Yes, I'm Chinese, but that makes no difference. My Ving Tsun teacher is Filipino. I've known many great martial artists who aren't Chinese. Also reality check here, in the Chinese Martial Arts Dramas, people can fly or make things explode with their Qi. If I believed that to be true, I'd be living in a fantasy world.

I've read many articles and forums about true masters. Most of the true masters who have an exceptionally high level of skill usually study one thing. Yip Man with Ving Tsun. Morihei Ueshiba with Aikijiujitsu -->Aikido. Almost all the Taiji masters before the 1930s. Dong Hai Chuan with Bagua. If there were masters who studied different things, it's because they felt it could complement the system they already learned not to combine two of them because their original system lacked something.

Also, just to make one more point. I'm Chinese, I have not "Bai Si" to anyone yet. I've only had 2 teachers who took me as students, but I never entered their doors as disciples. That's of my choice, because there is a saying (I hope my Chinese is right because I'm an ABC with low Chinese Language skills), "一日为师，终身为父“ (Mandarin - yi ri wei shi, zhong shen wei fu / Cantonese - Yaht yut wai shi, zong sang wai fu) Literally translates to, "One day as a teacher, a lifetime as a father". Roughly translates to, "If you are my Sifu for one day, you will be my father for life." Once I Bai Si or become a disciple that means I am my teacher's son and he is my ceremonial father. I have a father in my secular life. I can have one more for my martial or spiritual life. So I count 2. To have multiple Bai Si's and discipleships is like having dozens of fathers. Who should I be loyal to? Which one should I take care of? Can I be close to one father but not so much to another. As a Chinese, person, I take Bai Si / discipleship as something more important than others because most Western Cultures don't have the same thing. At least not that I know of. To take it lightly, IN MY OPINION, feels like I'm disrespectful to my own culture.

But, if you have asked all your Sifus if you could become another person's disciple, maybe that's OK. But If they feel the same way I do about this ceremony, that could be one reason they haven't given you any satisfactory answers. As a culture, we are still very traditional and somewhat secretive. If I was a Sifu and took on a disciple, I would think he would be like my adopted son. If he asked to have another adopted father, I would think that my adopted son doesn't want to be part of my family. Why should I give him all that I have? He will just take it and give it all away as if it were nothing special.

Being secretive could be why we many kung fu styles or secrets have disappeared. I think we should change it, but we can only hope for change, not force it. It would be impossible and disrespectful to force your teacher to give you everything you want.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone and their views. I welcome your criticisms and will not take offense to anything you say. I will try to understand yours and hopefully by expressing my views, we can work together to find answers. But if we don't cooperate with each other, these boards will be useless. It would only be a place to argue, belittle, or demean others. IMO, that is not productive. So I think the best way for us to work together to get the answers is to offer answers which we can deliberate on instead of comments that make no sense to most people.

I am only trying to express my views and not try to change your own. If it seems that way, I apologize. I too am seeking answers, and don't claim to have any.

[Hendrik]

Jim,

You want to help me to response? hahaha

You might have a more neutra position.

First things first, Yoshiyahu, great replies!! I was expecting that answer as well.

To Hendrik - So if all methods are the same to the ultimate goal, then why post in the Ving Tsun section? Why claim that the Fuk Sau can not dissolve? Isn't that hypocritical? Once you use Ving Tsun to prove that Ving Tsun doesn't have something, you are not pointing at the moon - that ultimate goal. You are trying to see if the path that you have chosen is right.

Like I said before, I think you have a lot of kung fu. Most people here, including me, don't understand you. You could be at a level that we're not on yet, but that means that you are there by yourself. Posing these questions is a means to get people to your level, but you have problems with languaging what you really want.

You could say that I'm narrow minded but I'm only being truthful to my own path of Ving Tsun. I have also started to study Taiji in my spare time but I'm not clouded by the ultimate goals. Sometimes observing the path on my journey is more worthwhile and if I ever achieve a goal, it wasn't by force but naturally. I just like learning and have no qualms with other's paths. I feel "to each their own."

Please don't take this the wrong way - Hendrik.
If you have many Sifus, to find answers, we could say that you are a jack of all trades but a master of none. I know that in today's world you have to make the most of your time to get what you want. But truly dedicating yourself to one thing takes much more endurance and dedication. If you say that you are truly a master of something, then there should be no questions because you've reached your goal. If you aren't a master and constantly change paths to find what you are looking for then you will never reach your goal. Mostly because once you hit a roadblock, you change paths and never stay long enough to understand why your path was obstructed.

(Only my Opinions below.)
Yes, I'm Chinese, but that makes no difference. My Ving Tsun teacher is Filipino. I've known many great martial artists who aren't Chinese. Also reality check here, in the Chinese Martial Arts Dramas, people can fly or make things explode with their Qi. If I believed that to be true, I'd be living in a fantasy world.

I've read many articles and forums about true masters. Most of the true masters who have an exceptionally high level of skill usually study one thing. Yip Man with Ving Tsun. Morihei Ueshiba with Aikijiujitsu -->Aikido. Almost all the Taiji masters before the 1930s. Dong Hai Chuan with Bagua. If there were masters who studied different things, it's because they felt it could complement the system they already learned not to combine two of them because their original system lacked something.

Also, just to make one more point. I'm Chinese, I have not "Bai Si" to anyone yet. I've only had 2 teachers who took me as students, but I never entered their doors as disciples. That's of my choice, because there is a saying (I hope my Chinese is right because I'm an ABC with low Chinese Language skills), "一日为师，终身为父“ (Mandarin - yi ri wei shi, zhong shen wei fu / Cantonese - Yaht yut wai shi, zong sang wai fu) Literally translates to, "One day as a teacher, a lifetime as a father". Roughly translates to, "If you are my Sifu for one day, you will be my father for life." Once I Bai Si or become a disciple that means I am my teacher's son and he is my ceremonial father. I have a father in my secular life. I can have one more for my martial or spiritual life. So I count 2. To have multiple Bai Si's and discipleships is like having dozens of fathers. Who should I be loyal to? Which one should I take care of? Can I be close to one father but not so much to another. As a Chinese, person, I take Bai Si / discipleship as something more important than others because most Western Cultures don't have the same thing. At least not that I know of. To take it lightly, IN MY OPINION, feels like I'm disrespectful to my own culture.

But, if you have asked all your Sifus if you could become another person's disciple, maybe that's OK. But If they feel the same way I do about this ceremony, that could be one reason they haven't given you any satisfactory answers. As a culture, we are still very traditional and somewhat secretive. If I was a Sifu and took on a disciple, I would think he would be like my adopted son. If he asked to have another adopted father, I would think that my adopted son doesn't want to be part of my family. Why should I give him all that I have? He will just take it and give it all away as if it were nothing special.

Being secretive could be why we many kung fu styles or secrets have disappeared. I think we should change it, but we can only hope for change, not force it. It would be impossible and disrespectful to force your teacher to give you everything you want.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone and their views. I welcome your criticisms and will not take offense to anything you say. I will try to understand yours and hopefully by expressing my views, we can work together to find answers. But if we don't cooperate with each other, these boards will be useless. It would only be a place to argue, belittle, or demean others. IMO, that is not productive. So I think the best way for us to work together to get the answers is to offer answers which we can deliberate on instead of comments that make no sense to most people.

I am only trying to express my views and not try to change your own. If it seems that way, I apologize. I too am seeking answers, and don't claim to have any.

[JPinAZ]

Not to mention, in an action, there is no Taiji or Ving Tsun but natural action phenomenon.

Taiji and Wing Chun are just a finger pointing to the moon. If you get trap into the name you stuck.

Is that so? Then why, when you met a Weng Chun Master and he put you on your on your a$$, did you yell "that's not Wing Chun, that's not Wing Chun!!"

[anerlich]

You could be at a level that we're not on yet,

Nope, that ain't it.

[k gledhill]

dissolving is clear enough for me

I'm not sure if the conventional shape of the fook sau can actually dissolve at all

fok sao is a neutral elbow...neither tan /jum/jut etc...relaxed elbow occupying the center loosely ..ie after a strike we recover our arm/elbow back immediately to fok sao 'thinking' relaxed .
The wrist is nothing to do with it, why the hand flops down because there is no energy in the wrist after doing vu sao, the focus is the alignment of the elbow /wrist relative to the c line as it moves out to its position in SLT / centerline training drills.


fok doesnt dissolve if you dont understand the idea being developed you get ambiguous ideas...like standing in a drill doing fok dissolving energy cr&p . Think aggressive, attacking, flowing of techniques.

[Hardwork108]

Nope, that ain't it.

Yes it is, but perhaps you are not at a level to appreciate that fact.

HW8

[jooerduo]

fok sao is a neutral elbow...neither tan /jum/jut etc...relaxed elbow occupying the center loosely ..ie after a strike we recover our arm/elbow back immediately to fok sao 'thinking' relaxed .
The wrist is nothing to do with it, why the hand flops down because there is no energy in the wrist after doing vu sao, the focus is the alignment of the elbow /wrist relative to the c line as it moves out to its position in SLT / centerline training drills.


fok doesnt dissolve if you dont understand the idea being developed you get ambiguous ideas...like standing in a drill doing fok dissolving energy cr&p . Think aggressive, attacking, flowing of techniques.

we need to go back and look at the meaning of the fook sau from chinese writing, and determine if your fook is doing what is intended by the written meaning

there's heaps of lineages out there, so plenty of different ways of doing things

[k gledhill]

Chinese writing is no guarantee of anything its all about the idea your developing....fok sao is simply a neutral elbow in a drilling environment. Trying to make it more that that and your going into the realms of, everything has a hidden use/ meaning ...

Like say...lau sao, the translation is to flip water out of a bucket with a hand /wrist/ twist , like a light spank on your girlfriends butt, with your elbow in....but the translation is meaningless without the WHOLE idea its basking in. Isolate it like "FOK SAO" and you get floppy hand , no idea is mentioned about the elbow development causing the 'fok hand'...SOOO everyone concentrates on the fook hand not the fook elbow, and yes you guessed it misses all that heavenly glory [ I love that film ] and your mind shifts to the wrists, hands, etc...no elbow theory...To much wristing chi-sao will develop a completely different VT fighter.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes it is, but perhaps you are not at a level to appreciate that fact.

HW8

welcome back hardwork....

[Hardwork108]

welcome back hardwork....

Good to be back and good to see you, Yoshiyahu.

[Wayfaring]

Is that so? Then why, when you met a Weng Chun Master and he put you on your on your a$$, did you yell "that's not Wing Chun, that's not Wing Chun!!"

Because he's at a level we're not on yet? A seated level?

[kung fu fighter]

Bong with turning horse is a redirection - sounds more like Hendrik's description of withdrawal.

yup. It doesnt dissolve the incoming forces.

Hua Jing - (Transforming Energy) Defense through absorbing the strength of a punch, redirecting its force, etc.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I never did like Chinese terminology because it is just too sketchy and has too many different interpretations. I just use my own terminology instead.
Absorbing energy or force to me is simply taking it full brunt and hoping for minimal damage. Disolving to me is simply taking away intent rather than dealing directly with the force. An example would be tinkering with ones balance or structure if you will when he is attempting to toss a punch or whatever. Once a punch is thrown, there is little you can do other than move out of the way or redirect it if possible. It is usually quicker and easier to redirect than to move your body more than simply shifting or turning.
I think what Hendrik is talking about is internal stuff. Hendrik, I think what people are looking to you for is an example of how this disolving of force is done. A hypothetical example maybe. One where you physically apply some technique to achieve this effect. You are way too vague in your comments, when a simple physical example might explain a great deal better.

[Hendrik]

I think what Hendrik is talking about is internal stuff. Hendrik, I think what people are looking to you for is an example of how this disolving of force is done. A hypothetical example maybe. One where you physically apply some technique to achieve this effect. You are way too vague in your comments, when a simple physical example might explain a great deal better.

1, there is nothing internal or external if one knows it. spiritual and meterialistic are non dual.

2, my pop corn filler analogy and force vectors description in the other post has a full description. but I cant force everyone to read it and comprehend it.

[JPinAZ]

Forget it LCP. Hendrik's made 3 videos that are on youtube where he could have demonstrated ANYTHING, but instead he spent 20 minutes sitting at a table talking on and on and on. And he has a student right there next to him that he could have stood up and partnered with..

Then in his 3rd vid, he has his student do their famous invisible great dane petting trick to everyone's amazement. But, still no partnering, no real demonstration of application or skill. Why? Because this guy is a joke that's slipped his straight jacket and wanders the internet spewing tai chi ideas mixed with some crane and who-knows-what-else.. It's all talk with him. And there's 20+ minutes of video, and 100's of incoherent posting by him to prove the fact.

Oh wait, sorry, my bad, he just gave us the missing key to WCK: pop corn filler.