View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14206
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    on Kicking your hand;

    Its done all the time in Kung Fu

    The hand strikes out towards the opponents face. THis is not to grab or hit but meerly to create a reaction. When they react to the hand they do not register the kick to the nuts so quickly. It is an extension of Shaolins first principle 'Xian Fan, hou Gong' (First disrupt, then manouver).

    YOu should never kick out obviously, so a move of the hand at the same time as the kick is warranted. Ideally you could finger strike the eyes or the throat at the same time as kicking the nuts but this is easier said then done.

    The straight snap kick is almost always below the waist. In SongShanShaolin you are supposed to kick at waist height and reach for your foot to slap it. THis is actually very difficult to do, it requires flexibility. It is much easier to slap the foot when you kick higher, thats why people kick higher.

    YOu rarely get a chance to do a straight snap kick to the face because the body is in the way of the circular arc. If the head is bent down then the hands are in the way and the leg is easily caught, you should use a circular kick when the head is ducked. So the straight snap is generally a kick to the nuts.


    So why slap the foot? Reasons below;

    1. So you learn to throw your hand out at the same time as the kick as a distraction. Or a finger strike to eyes or throat, or simply to scratch down the face, or obscuring the eyes to hide the kick. Take your pick.

    2. So you become flexible enough to touch your foot when it is at its longest (waist height). This way if it (the leg) is caught your hand can reach the opponents arm quickly.

    3. To measure power

    4. To condition hand

    5. To make a cool noise

    6. To prevent injury. (When you are always kicking with full power and stopping your leg using your own muscles, this hurts the tendons at the side of the knee. Kicking a hand gives you something to bounce off).

    Good enough reasons?

    These are the reasons we do it in Song Shan Shaolin (Actual Shaolin temple). I can't speak for Shaolin Do.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 04-07-2012 at 04:46 AM.

  2. #14207
    It is an extension of Shaolins first principle 'Xian Fan, hou Gong' (First disrupt, then manouver).
    Cool post, thanks. Can anyone help with the characters here? I'm guessing this one?

    先反后攻

    (because 反攻 = counterattack)

    But I don't see many google hits on this collocation.

    Or could Fan be 烦 ?

    Also anyone know if the phrase can be "unpacked" into multi-syllable words?

  3. #14208
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    Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
    Cool post, thanks. Can anyone help with the characters here?
    My mistake, its 'Fang'.

    先防后攻

    Lit. 'Now Defend, after attack'. However, its not quite so simple. The principle is broken down so that 'Fang' means a movement which disrupts, in the case of a block this disrupts the opponents attack, when used without the opponent making a move, the 'Fang' movement becomes a distraction, a disruption of the opponents senses. Similarly Gong is not simply attack but to use a technique of some kind.

  4. #14209
    Thanks, that makes sense.

    When slapping the foot do you keep the elbow of the slapping arm down and close to the front of the body as the hand goes up, and then slap? By not extending the "fang" arm too much, especially at the beginning, it could be a preemptive attack and a "statistical" cover-up block at the same time, since you don't know what might be just about to come at you. While starting the slap the arm is almost snaking out like a wingchun tan sau. Hard to describe in words.

    Perhaps related to the principle of maintaining some curvature: a better defensive structre even while striking.

    Just random thoughts... hope it's clear enough.
    Last edited by rett; 04-07-2012 at 07:41 AM.

  5. #14210
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    SD Best?

    "and yes Garry Mullins is a bad mofo. He and Frank Mingione are the two best 8th Degrees."

    With respect, and I've been in class with both Garry Mullins and Frank Mingione (back in another day), and they are both exceptional practitioners and athletes, and both have superior sparring skills, but I've seen Bob Green do things that defy explanation, from a fighting point of view and internal skills. And I'd put a good word in for Eric Smith too, including from personal experience. They both though are among those that don't advertise or promothe themselves, and it seems those with the most skill don't publicize it, and that is why (or at least partly why) public examples of SD form work are hard to find. Or I should say, "good" examples.
    Last edited by One student; 04-07-2012 at 07:51 AM.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  6. #14211
    I think we need to realize just what a load of **** Bill Leonard's open letter is. Those of you who are agreeing with him need to put down the Kool-Aid.

    Bill Leonard fails to explain the part about the other 30+ forms Sin The' says he made up.

    Question to Sin The' in deposition: "And then you have 29 forms you made up yourself?"

    Sin The's Answer: "As of 1990. And then I make up another 30 -- 37 or 40 some form up to now."


    So, which forms might those be? Will Bill Leonard be posting a list for us?

  7. #14212
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    If you kick the same way you knee someone, one of the two (or both) is being done incorrectly.
    I guess you just don't know how to do a kick and knee properly , it's ok most people don't know anything about their bodies. You still have to engage the same muscles through the same a range of motion in a front kick and a front knee. I understand how it is different and the same, drake.

  8. #14213
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    I guess you just don't know how to do a kick and knee properly , it's ok most people don't know anything about their bodies. You still have to engage the same muscles through the same a range of motion in a front kick and a front knee. I understand how it is different and the same, drake.
    A straight front kick is nothing like a knee.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  9. #14214

    Ugh

    Whatever, you just want argue. A knee is more like a kick than it is any other striking technique. It utilizes the same components of the kinetic chain. The same nervous system, bones and muscle. The arc maybe smaller and the part of the leg you are using for striking maybe different, it's still essentially the same. I am aware of the differences . There are more similarities than differences. A knee is a type of kick, hell even a sweep is a type of kick.

  10. #14215
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    sorry, bro. A knee is more like a lead jab than a front straight kick.

    A sweep is like a kick, but a knee isn't even close.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 04-07-2012 at 01:51 PM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  11. #14216
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ797 View Post
    I think we need to realize just what a load of **** Bill Leonard's open letter is. Those of you who are agreeing with him need to put down the Kool-Aid.

    Bill Leonard fails to explain the part about the other 30+ forms Sin The' says he made up.

    Question to Sin The' in deposition: "And then you have 29 forms you made up yourself?"

    Sin The's Answer: "As of 1990. And then I make up another 30 -- 37 or 40 some form up to now."


    So, which forms might those be? Will Bill Leonard be posting a list for us?
    Mercer won't touch this question with a 10 foot Shaolin katana.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  12. #14217
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Whatever, you just want argue. A knee is more like a kick than it is any other striking technique. It utilizes the same components of the kinetic chain. The same nervous system, bones and muscle. The arc maybe smaller and the part of the leg you are using for striking maybe different, it's still essentially the same. I am aware of the differences . There are more similarities than differences. A knee is a type of kick, hell even a sweep is a type of kick.
    I don't think you know what you're talking about. This is a pretty self-evident thing I'm talking about.

    Just because it uses the same limb means absolutely nothing.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  13. #14218
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Mercer won't touch this question with a 10 foot Shaolin katana.
    Meecer .. not Mercer .. how long have we known each other bro? (Last name is Meece .. was a nickname that was given to me long ago. Early on I found that Meecer was taken so I chose themeecer)

    Actually, I am being lazy ... I found statements within the same deposition that contradict that or at the very least are vague. I was planning on finding them, but my ADD has kicked in. I will agree that even though my loyalties lie with GM Sin, that this wasn't a stellar moment. I find it hard wrapping my brain around how a person can copyright a set of movements. However, I am not privy to the circumstances between GM Sin, the Soards, and 'Jake Mace.' Maybe I would understand it better, if I was. I do know that GM Sin has always treated me very well and the material I learned from him through my teacher has served me very well.

    I do find it hard to believe that our brown belt bird katas were pulled out of thin air. There is just too much meat there to be randomly thrown together. I actually prefer this material to some of our recent seminars. Maybe it is because I was weaned on these 27 years ago and have such a deep working familiarity with them.

    As to the slapping the foot with a front kick. I use it for training purposes, but have never used it in sparring or in a self defense situation. I lack the ability to effectively pull that off as well. I could better see using the slap with a crescent kick, to help with accuracy.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  14. #14219
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    ...also, I was under the impression that the brown belt bird forms were a portion of what Master Sin's brother, Hiang "majored" in under GM Ie.

    Thought I'd come see what's going on...I have friends still in SD and this seems to have shaken them up quite a bit.
    Keep it simple, stupid.

  15. #14220
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    sorry, bro. A knee is more like a lead jab than a front straight kick.

    A sweep is like a kick, but a knee isn't even close.
    Well I have never thrown a knee with my arm before, whatever. Guess you don't know much about the body either.

    actually , a knee is more like an elbow more than anything else , if you want to get technical. The knee is done with a leg and is nothing like a jab.
    Last edited by tattooedmonk; 04-07-2012 at 05:51 PM.

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