WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

[tc101]

You are saying that something you haven't tried (because you fear it) is simply too dangerous to try. And so you don't believe anyone has tried it.

Do you see how ridiculous this is?

I do it fear it I think it is stupid. It is like not wearing a mouthpiece and punching each other in the mouth. I have not tried that either but it is not good training. Is that ridiculous?

What is ridiculous are people claiming to really spar with no gloves or protective gear. They may move around and slap at each other oh wait weren't you one of the guys who that that was good sparring? Now it makes sense you are not really hitting each other but call it sparring.

[WC1277]

Viagramusti's WC works with boxing gloves because his WC punches like this ;

You're just stuck in the WC should look like Chi Sao state of mind LFJ.

[YouKnowWho]

You're just stuck in the WC should look like Chi Sao state of mind LFJ.

You can only hear the following statements in thread like this.

- This is not ...
- We don't do this ...
- This is against our style principle ...
- ...

Too many people become the slave of their style.

[guy b.]

I am not demanding anything.

Yes you are:

Where are the videos of people really sparring without gear?

People say they do gloveless sparring and I do not believe it.

You do not believe something you haven't tried and that you are scared to try in case it hurts your face (you imagine)?

[guy b.]

why can no one simply show me a video?

I am not demanding anything

Of course you aren't

[tc101]

I am not demanding them I am pointing out there are no such videos by asking where they are. They do not exist because people do not really spar that way.

[guy b.]

I am not demanding them I am pointing out there are no such videos by asking where they are. They do not exist because people do not really spar that way.

Sorry mate, someone who doubts the whole argument and the facts it is based upon is in fact demanding when they ask for evidence. Unfortunately you are in no position to demand anything, given that you are only speculating from a position of fear and complete uncertainty.

It doesn't matter at all whether you believe that bare fist sparring is possible. The purpose of discussing it is not to convince you, believe it or not.

[guy b.]

Ok.......

with boxing gloves on makes it difficult to use the correct punching strategy. The Man/wu position is very important and also punching from the correct wu sau position becomes harder. Wu Sau to Jut sau can be used to clear a path for the punch. It makes 50% less work in doing this if doing it correctly. With gloves on this becomes harder. It's not possible to use pak sau or jut sau correctly with boxing gloves especially with some types that have the thumb attached to the main part of the glove.
Chum Kiu teaches us a centerline crossing and recycling of the punch and using this punch to exploit gaps in the the opponents defense. With gloves on that occupy a larger space it becomes very hard to do.
Having an open hand is neccessary for a lot of VT actions.

The other thing to consider is that your sparring partner may also be wearing boxing gloves so the space in the middle is always full of glove.

VT functions using one arm to do two things. The hand has to be free to punch, palm, chop and the elbow assists by protecting the center, controlling the opponents COG and also to displace and limbs to make a path for the punch. These things are all made harder with gloves. You can have more success the smaller the mitt but for me no gloves is best and then I can get to work.

Timing and distancing is also effected by gloves. Basically if you want to put boxing gloves on its better to box. Training and sparring bare knuckle is best. There is no chance of taking a few punches on the gloves and using gloves for protection with open hands.

It may be difficult to understand from the written word and we already know that my lineage of Ving Tsun doesn't function the same as your LT's and IC's of this world.

When I was in Spain a few weeks ago we trained sparring and sparring drills all week. The sessions started with gloves (as one of the guys was preparing for a cage fight) but before too long we went back to no protection and padding. VT functions better that way.

This is only my opinion. If other systems of WC want to use gloves then that's up to them but we know that most WC decends into messy air beating kick boxing when they start to spar.

Excellent breakdown of the issues, thanks for taking the time. Timing and distancing were what I felt were my main problems with gloves but you state some other obvious ones that were staring me in the face but which I didn't think about. As you say opponent wearing them and filling up the centre is a huge issue. Using the correct punching strategy a huge issue. Good post!

[LFJ]

You're just stuck in the WC should look like Chi Sao state of mind LFJ.

Chi-sau isn't fighting. Maybe to you. Why would you think that just because we don't throw hook punches in VT?

You can only hear the following statements in thread like this.

- This is not ...
- We don't do this ...
- This is against our style principle ...
- ...

Too many people become the slave of their style.

Slave of the style? You're a slave to it when you try to keep using it despite things that prevent its proper use, such as big boxing gloves. You do it wrong, it loses its effectiveness. As Graham said, you're better off just boxing. I think its clear who the slaves are in this thread.

[GlennR]

Viagramusti's WC works with boxing gloves because his WC punches like this ;

Whats wrong with punching like that?

[GlennR]

Ok.......

with boxing gloves on makes it difficult to use the correct punching strategy. The Man/wu position is very important and also punching from the correct wu sau position becomes harder. Wu Sau to Jut sau can be used to clear a path for the punch. It makes 50% less work in doing this if doing it correctly. With gloves on this becomes harder. It's not possible to use pak sau or jut sau correctly with boxing gloves especially with some types that have the thumb attached to the main part of the glove.
Chum Kiu teaches us a centerline crossing and recycling of the punch and using this punch to exploit gaps in the the opponents defense. With gloves on that occupy a larger space it becomes very hard to do.
Having an open hand is neccessary for a lot of VT actions.

The other thing to consider is that your sparring partner may also be wearing boxing gloves so the space in the middle is always full of glove.

VT functions using one arm to do two things. The hand has to be free to punch, palm, chop and the elbow assists by protecting the center, controlling the opponents COG and also to displace and limbs to make a path for the punch. These things are all made harder with gloves. You can have more success the smaller the mitt but for me no gloves is best and then I can get to work.

Timing and distancing is also effected by gloves. Basically if you want to put boxing gloves on its better to box. Training and sparring bare knuckle is best. There is no chance of taking a few punches on the gloves and using gloves for protection with open hands.

It may be difficult to understand from the written word and we already know that my lineage of Ving Tsun doesn't function the same as your LT's and IC's of this world.

When I was in Spain a few weeks ago we trained sparring and sparring drills all week. The sessions started with gloves (as one of the guys was preparing for a cage fight) but before too long we went back to no protection and padding. VT functions better that way.

This is only my opinion. If other systems of WC want to use gloves then that's up to them but we know that most WC decends into messy air beating kick boxing when they start to spar.

Excellent points G.

To sum up, iMO, gloves just "get in the way" when youre doing WC

[WC1277]

...we don't throw hook punches in VT?

You couldn't be more wrong. Maybe not with a "one-armed system".

There's long bridge, short bridge, hooks, uppercuts, arm breaks, inside-facing long bridge chops, punches of all vertical levels, palms of all vertical levels, chops of all vertical levels, knee strikes, phoenix eye, ginger fist, tiger claw, and more...

I don't know how much more I can stress that WC can be applied ANY WAY with regards to fighting. It's all about "balanced movement" my friend from chum kiu and your long bridge motions coming from biu gee.

In regards to the hook, even our friend Matt pulled off some decent hooks and this was before he really started to develop his WC

http://youtu.be/s5ey4JLuhQ8

[LFJ]

Whats wrong with punching like that?

Didn't say anything is wrong with it. You can do whatever you want to do.

[LFJ]

@WC1277

We obviously don't train the same system.

[guy b.]

There's long bridge, short bridge, hooks, uppercuts, arm breaks, inside-facing long bridge chops, punches of all vertical levels, palms of all vertical levels, chops of all vertical levels, knee strikes, phoenix eye, ginger fist, tiger claw, and more...

I don't know how much more I can stress that WC can be applied ANY WAY with regards to fighting. It's all about "balanced movement" my friend from chum kiu and your long bridge motions coming from biu gee. http://youtu.be/s5ey4JLuhQ8

You've lost me now