Luohan Quan

[Sal Canzonieri]

Spent the last few days in shaolin,

Was talking to Yan Zhuang Shifu.

He told me Luohan quan was originally 18 forms. Most of dengfeng only has the first two, and then they only practice half of each. He says the first three are more important.

His Yi lu is the one as deyang does, only much longer 85 movements.

His Er lo is as the one zhang shi jie does, only much longer, 108 movements

His san lo is great, 60 moves, a very nice form.

Together these three form the main substance of Luohan quan, I don't think you will find a more definitive set, unless you find all 18.

His luohan 18 shou is not really a classic form, it is individual movements. It kind of looks a bit like Ba duan jin when put together. ALso very good.

So, Shi Yan Zhuang's Yi Lu Louhan is the complete Shi Degen Yi Lu set (85 postures)? What does Shi DeYang call this set again?

And what is his Er Lu? Is there a video of Zhang Shi Jie doing the set anywhere? What is this set also called?

San Lu, I have seen, of course, in the new book.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal said but isn't this from where Chen family art originated before they ended up in Chenjaogou and synthesis produced what we know as Chen shi taijiquan.

In some circles it is also said that Yang Luchan practiced a version of Hongquan or he saw a connection between Shaolin and Chen style synthesis so he was able to change the Chen choreography (using Shaolin as a template system) into present day Yang taijiquan!

No, Chen family is from SHANXI (not ShAAnxi, two different provinces), which is north of Shaanxi and Henan.
Chen family is from Hongdong area, which they practice a Chen TJQ like style called Hondong Tongbei Quan, a mixture of Shanxi Hong Quan and Chen family Long Fist form.
Yes, Yang Lu Chan's village was famous for it's Hong Quan.

[LFJ]

Yeah, it is 28 postures, like Zhao (Rising sun) on page 181 of 4 volume set.
But not too much like it, it shares some posture names.

You can translate it and post it, the "lost" forms are given in volume 1 of the 4 volume set.
Do you have all 4?

There is also a 2 volume version that has it as well, it came out first, in 1992, before the 4 volume version.

can you tell me the page number its on?

[Sal Canzonieri]

can you tell me the page number its on?

Volume 1 in the set, page 644, right above 6 Ancestors Quan (Liu Zu Quan) you will find the Guan Zhao Quan set.
No history, it just lists the postures, I counted 28.
And some are the same postures as in the other sets.

[LFJ]

well, i cant find it. i have an electronic version, apparently missing some pages... i'll have to wait for this new daquan book to read it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, i cant find it. i have an electronic version, apparently missing some pages... i'll have to wait for this new daquan book to read it.

oh man, it doesn't have volume 1? The history volume?
The "lost" routines section here is way bigger than the one in the new version.
There's lots of great sets listed with their postures and some info too.
A lot of these sets are found in the dengfeng and other areas of Henan.
Luoyang has a lot of lost Shaolin sets, some listed here.

[LFJ]

is it the same in the daquan book though, for chaoyangquan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

is it the same in the daquan book though, for chaoyangquan?

Hmm? Don't understand your question.

The Guanchao Quan posture names are in both books.

The Chao and Zhao Yang sets are in both books as well.
Only the first one has photos of the postures.

Guan Chao, chao yang, and Zhao yang all have different posture names; they are three different sets.

[LFJ]

Guan Chao, chao yang, and Zhao yang all have different posture names; they are three different sets.

thats what i figured.

sorry, i meant to ask about guanchaoquan being the same in both.

[LFJ]

Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

this is the first set i ever learned when starting shaolin. that and babu lianhuanquan, which both can be done as a partner set without changing anything.

was just looking at the shaolin encyc. and this set is listed as luohan shiba shou "9 lu", but it is drawn by a different artist (a much better one). just like the mizongquan 2 lu was. it is way easier to follow. but must have been a later addition.

interestingly, they dont give any history for this 9th set. they just list it as if it were part of the 1-8 road series. only it says the attack skills are a step above.

the way i originally learned it was exactly like the encyclopedia shows it. which is the way most people do it outside of shaolin, more or less. at shi deyang's school its different. the video you posted is one of the main coaches at the school now. but the way he does it there is different too. its done like this at the school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

i like the last section, starting from :17. its way smoother that way, than grabbing your shoulder and literally doing a qinna technique on an invisible man. the ending section the way most people do it is too obvious, and the rhythm is too choppy... i think.

[Sal Canzonieri]

this is the first set i ever learned when starting shaolin. that and babu lianhuanquan, which both can be done as a partner set without changing anything.

was just looking at the shaolin encyc. and this set is listed as luohan shiba shou "9 lu", but it is drawn by a different artist (a much better one). just like the mizongquan 2 lu was. it is way easier to follow. but must have been a later addition.

interestingly, they dont give any history for this 9th set. they just list it as if it were part of the 1-8 road series. only it says the attack skills are a step above.

the way i originally learned it was exactly like the encyclopedia shows it. which is the way most people do it outside of shaolin, more or less. at shi deyang's school its different. the video you posted is one of the main coaches at the school now. but the way he does it there is different too. its done like this at the school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

i like the last section, starting from :17. its way smoother that way, than grabbing your shoulder and literally doing a qinna technique on an invisible man. the ending section the way most people do it is too obvious, and the rhythm is too choppy... i think.

I learned those 2 sets too early on too, cool.
The set is originally from Luoyang, and before that it was from Shandong.
It's got the five elements in the whole first section of the set.
The way I learned it is not so tight and more fluid than the standard version seen all over. You should so that way they do it in Louyang, it looks great, kinda like snakey Xing Yi.
You can see the Shandong Hua (Glorious) Fist original way of doing it on vcds that are available from that style's lineage.

That set and the mizong er lu are taken out of the new 2 volume shaolin da quan books.

You like that the hand lock move is not done in that video link? I don't.
I learned the Hua Quan version too, besides the Shaolin version, and saw the Luoyang version, and that qin na movement is integral to the self defense use of the movements, in my opinion. Smooth is not always the most effective way of doing things.
Against a shoulder grab, it's a good application. and a great way to break a jerk's elbow when necessary.

[LFJ]

no, the qinna application is still there. i just dont like how in most versions you literally grab your shoulder and look like you're applying the lock on someone who isnt there. just looks and feels weird to me, since most qinna techniques and other applications in shaolin sets are somewhat hidden, not so obvious.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The joint locks are obvious in other Hua Quan sets too, that style is way ancient and so it often looks primitive (but still extremely effective)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ok Guys

Just got back from another training session with Yan Zhuang Shifu.

Earlier I made an assumption, he said his Luohan quan yi lo was about 80 moves, er lo 108. He showen me the first few of each and it looked like the sets we are familiar with.

However, we were learning Yi lu luohan quan today....

It is like Liu Zhen Hai. Basically, it is liu zhen hais yi lu and Er lu stuck together, with no zuo shan stance as a break, they merge directly. This is really interesting.

Actually the form is very close, there are a lot of different direction changes and some moves done on the left instead of the right and vice versa but it is basically the same form. Very long indeed, much longer than the Tagou Da luohan.

Now having studied both versions, you can see that the second part of the tagou form is actually just an abridgement of LiuZhenHais Er lo form.

This has led me to hypothesize that YanZhuangs Er lo luohan (108 moves) will be LiuZhenHais 3,4 and 5 luohan stuck together.

THis makes a lot of sense. When you see liuzhenhais forms individually, they look a little strange, but if you imagine it is all one big form you can see there is a lot of symmetry between all the forms.

The funny thing is this symmetry recurs even in Meihua quan (even in the second half of meihua quan that liu zhenhai doesn't show ) which leads me to think that it is indeed luohan quan. In fact it has no unique moves which do not occur in the other luohan quans.

ANyway so far I have learned YanZHuangs Yi lo luohan quan which is basically Liuzhenhais Yi lu and er lu together, only a lot lot cooler. THere are a few differences as I say, but all the moves are there.

Once again it seems LiuZhenHais VCD series is about the most accurate....

Very interesting, hmmm.

So, there`s like three long Luohan Quan routines then.

1 - There`s Shi Degen`s Yi Lu set (about 85 postures) and there is a Er Lu he taught too.

2 - There`s Liu Zhenhai`s and Tagou`s Da Luohan Quan, about 108 postures.

3 - There`s this Shi Yanzhuang Yi Lu and Er lu set that is very close to Liu Zhenhai`s short 1-6 Luohan Quan VCDs.

Is that correct or wrong.

These three groupings are 3 different long sets, yes or no.

but, how can Liu Zhenhai's Luohan Quan vcds be explained in that:

yi lu = the Lao Luohan that Shi Deyang does (aka 3 section Luohan, Xiao Luohan, etc.)

er lu = ?

san lu = first section of Shi Degen's Luohan Quan Yi Lu set

si lu = ?

wu lu = ?

liu lu = looks like Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan?

Qi lu = Da Mei Hua Quan.

What would be amazing then would be that Shi Yanzhuang`s Yi, Er, and San sets would not only cover Liuzhenhai`s vcds Luohan series, specifically 1-6 lu
BUT also it would cover Shi Degen`s Yi Lu set (since Liuzhenhai`s Si Lu and like Wu Lu cover that set as well).

If that is the case, please ask him to do books on this Yi Lu and Er Lu to complete the set that he started in Shi Yongxin`s San Lu Luohan Quan book.

[RenDaHai]

Not quite..

Liu Zhen Hai Forms:

1 lo: YanZhuang Yi lo 1/2, Deyang 1/1, TagouDa 1/2, YongWen(from Degen) 1/2

2 lo: YanZhuang Yi lo 2/2, TagouDa 2/2 Fractional, YongWen 2/2 frational

3 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 1/3, Tagou xiao, Tagou 'refined', Zhangshijie(zhutianxi) 1/2

4 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 2/3, Tagou xiao, Tagou 'refined', Zhangshijie 2/2

5 lo: YanZhuang Er lo 3/3, should be similar to zhutianxi's book in this part.

6 lo: YanZhuang San lo 1/2

7 lo: YanZhuang Meihua quan 1/2

Basically Liuzhenhais 1+2 put together cover all variations of 'xiao' luohan quan as deyang refers to it. They should be together, you can see he doesn't even end in zuo shan for yi lo on his VCD's. My form is the two put together, no zuo shan in between.

LiuZHenHais 3+4+5 should also be together (in theory, I am yet to confirm this, but from the conversation I had with YanZHuang I think its a safe bet). This, although different in sequence, should cover all the moves in Tagous xiao luohan, and refined luohan, as well as in Zhutianxi's book and in zhangshijie's performance (white robes performance). It forms Yan Zhuangs er lo. SOme basics are different but if you study it you will see all the moves are present.

LiuZhenHais 6 form is the same as the first half of yanzhuangs 3 form. LiuZHenhais 7 form as we have discussed is the first half of meihua quan. Although having watched these extensively and studied 1+2 I can say with confidence that every move in meihua quan appears in luohan somewhere... It think it may well be a luohan quan set.


I think Liuzhenhais sets are only split as they are because they can only fit so much on a vcd, together they are probably the same as yanzhuangs, 3 sets not 6,7.


Basically if you study all of LiuZhenhais Luohan quans you have the complete set of moves in all published versions of luohan quan. There are still the rest of the 18 forms, but it appears if they still exist only Zhutianxis lineage will have the remainders.

Bare in mind LiuZhenhai was also a student of Degen. We can see by the rest of his forms that his stuff has remained unchanged. YOngwen, zhutianxi and others may have changed some elements of forms for publication but i beleive liuzhenhai has kept his as they are.

Some sad news, it appears Liuzhenhai may have died recently.... More on that when I find out for certain.