Kung Fu and fighting

[BigPandaBear]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

[Frost]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

i think the bigger question is if kung fu usd to look like kick boxing (basic kicks, punches, clinch work trips and throws) what made it move towards looking like dancing......

[David Jamieson]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

TCMA has synthesized self cultivation, chan(zen)-innerpeace and health within it's martial arts. It is unique in that sense. I don't think it's an excuse, it is a part of many systems.

it's not an excuse to "avoid" combat. An excuse to avoid combat is "no, I'm not into fighting" when someone asks you to fight. lol.

Boxer self cultivate through their art form. Their health, their well being and their ability to step up and win is dependent upon their self discipline. Each feeds the other.

You would be hard pressed to find a decent school that doesn't recognize that martial arts require self discipline, sacrifice etc and all of that is self cultivation.

All physical discipline that requires practice and time spent IS self cultivating and movement towards inner peace. IMNSHO.

[lkfmdc]

If the epitome of CMA is ending up looking like a kickboxer, why don't we just take kickboxing to begin with?

or maybe kung fu always looked like "kickboxing" and your idea of "kung fu" comes from movies and fantasies.....

[lkfmdc]

Chan wai man doesn't look too polished in that fight

Could he be better? YES
BUT, at least he was fighting....

This was the starting point for me, we were taught fighting and we were fighting, but we wanted to be better (well I wanted to be better, not all my class mates obviously)....

Back in the "old days" though, at least there was fighting....
In Taiwan, at Tang Shou Tao for example, they had all the Chi Kung, the Taoist philosophy, the forms, etc, but they also fought full contact

But the community didn't move forward from that point, it moved BACKWARD

Gene once suggested that national forms competitions and the influence of modern wushu started the trend, but we could discuss it even more

[LaRoux]

or maybe kung fu always looked like "kickboxing" and your idea of "kung fu" comes from movies and fantasies.....

Yeah, this sure looks like kickboxing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY&app=desktop

I guess someone else was living in movie and fantasy land also.

[GeneChing]

Gene once suggested that national forms competitions and the influence of modern wushu started the trend, but we could discuss it even more

Forms competitions go way way back. You could even argue that the earliest documented examples of forms could be traced to 'sword dances' for which there is evidence that goes back millennia. The notion of martial performance through dance is quite pervasive in ancient culture, especially tribal cultures. It was a show of strength. Look. Our warriors can bust some bad ass moves. Don't mess with us.

What changed was turning it into sport. This is a trend we see arising in the wake of firearms throughout Asia and Europe. Now this is where wushu taolu becomes a significant factor (we won't discuss wushu sanda, as most people overlook that aspect of modern wushu anyway ). A lot of people will point their fingers at wushu taolu with the ol' 'flowery fists, embroidered legs' accusation, but the key to remember here is that this accusation is old. As soon as the firearm arises, you start seeing criticisms of martial arts losing its fighting essence worldwide. There are rants against the Samurai, the Shaolin monks, and even fencing masters, that go back to the 16th century. The difference there might be print - no forum to rant on - but those complaints are nothing new. If anything, I think that it's just more exaggerated now. There is so much diversity that a crazy wide range of manifestations of martial arts is readily available at a touch of your keyboard. Sport has also become more formal than ever before (compare boxing rules back in the day to today, or even MMA rules a few decades ago to today). With any game, competitors seek advantages through loopholes in the rules. So its natural that any sport tightens up over time. Eventually the rules become the essence. Anyone who has competed in any serious sport knows this. So when you have a rule set for something like MMA, versus a rule set for something like modern wushu (both of which are still in their infancy in terms of rules, IMO), there's bound to be opposition. It's also bound to get highly specialized.

That being said, I don't think these complaints are all that new. Cosplay is new. Well, sort of. If I work hard enough at it, I could compare it to the complaints of frivolous Samurai helmets and how they felt it was degrading bushido.

[Kellen Bassette]

The notion of martial performance through dance is quite pervasive in ancient culture, especially tribal cultures. It was a show of strength. Look. Our warriors can bust some bad ass moves. Don't mess with us.

The idea of war dances is certainly not new, neither is the criticism of those that specialize in the dance over the fighting skill. I think what is more relatively, recent, is the inability to distinguish between the two.

[lkfmdc]

Sure, ritual dance goes back a long way in all societies. Some might even say Bagua circle walking is related to Taoist circle chanting....

Nor is criticism new of course, we have it back with General QI

But in NYC Chinatown in the 1980's, well we had guns (TRUST ME ON THAT!) and yet forms were not addressed the same way. A view of the old ESPY TV "masters' demo" tapes will confirm that

Also, for a long time ritual dance and even some "sport" was side by side with fighting....

You had the Kuoshu Lei Tai events in 1920's and 1930's, you had the ring fights in HK in 1970's and 1980's.... .early US sanshou had TCMA school participation for quite a while....

There is something a little more going on here than just that explanation

[lkfmdc]

we won't discuss wushu sanda, as most people overlook that aspect of modern wushu anyway ).

most people say it isn't real kung fu anyway

[LaRoux]

"]
Interesting. Posting a clip from Child Beauty Pageant Dance Mom's with the Stars of Orange County and calling it kung fu wasn't exactly comedy gold the first time.

Why would you steal such a bad joke. . .?

Unless. . .

Because it highlights the essence of trying to pull techniques from forms. The only difference between doing it from a form and these kids' dancing routines is that the forms are labeled martial arts and the dancing is labeled dancing. Functionally, there's no difference.

[GeneChing]

There is something a little more going on here than just that explanation

I'm not sure about he rest of the country, but MMA changed the governing laws in CA for full contact. We can do light contact and point sparring, but that was never a big thing for TCMA to my recollection. We used to do combined tournaments too, where an all-around champ had to to empty-hand forms, weapon forms and spar, but no longer. Now, if you want to do full contact, that's pretty much all you'll be able to afford to do. That's the fallout of sport fighting.

As for the fallout of sport wushu (taolu), I'd venture to say that made CMA more family friendly. I mean, in TCMA, there was always your Kung Fu siblings, but with modern taolu, its classes of rugrats doing the after-school programs. For a lot of non-martial arts families, the notion of forms - of non-contact - is very appealing.

most people say it isn't real kung fu anyway

Everyone has their own idea of what real Kung Fu is, right? Real Kung Fu is my Kung Fu. Yours is fake.

[lkfmdc]

I'm not sure about he rest of the country, but MMA changed the governing laws in CA for full contact. We can do light contact and point sparring, but that was never a big thing for TCMA to my recollection. We used to do combined tournaments too, where an all-around champ had to to empty-hand forms, weapon forms and spar, but no longer. Now, if you want to do full contact, that's pretty much all you'll be able to afford to do. That's the fallout of sport fighting.

That doesn't account for the late 1990's when the sanshou nationals have zero TCMA participation.... what you cite means it would be very hard to revive, but doesn't account for the original shift (IMHO)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Regarding the original links:

The monkey practitioner studied Thai boxing. It kept popping up in his posture and he kept having to shake it off.

Chai Wai Man studied Western boxing. He was never ashamed to admit it.

Both men went beyond style to improve themselves. I do not know if it can be said that they improved their styles.

mickey

[lkfmdc]

Real Kung Fu is my Kung Fu. Yours is fake.

OF COURSE MY KUNG FU IS FAKE! Haven't you been paying attention?