View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13126
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    He sent me these July 4th, 2007. I think the statute of limitations is up...

    I put the watermark on so these don't turn up on a bunch of SD websites...







    Very nice ... what makes you think this is GM Ie? Why wouldn't you want that showing up on SD sites? If that is our Great Grandmaster, I would think you would be happy we finally have a picture of him .. even if you don't agree that what he teaches is authentic.

    Thanks for the upload.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  2. #13127
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    I thought I was responding to the question of why a teacher cannot go into another teacher's area to open a school.
    Show me the question you are talking about. I don't think I, or anyone else here for that matter, is so stupid that we don't know that it's bad form for one instructor to invade the territory of another.

  3. #13128
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    Quote Originally Posted by themeecer View Post
    Very nice ... what makes you think this is GM Ie? Why wouldn't you want that showing up on SD sites? If that is our Great Grandmaster, I would think you would be happy we finally have a picture of him .. even if you don't agree that what he teaches is authentic.

    Thanks for the upload.
    Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  4. #13129
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?
    I was wondering who the big white guy was .. man he sticks out like a sore thumb. hehe

    I hadn't heard that GM Ie hadn't trained any non-Chinese. Golden Tiger has never divulged his identity to me so I don't know if he is someone who is close enough to know this. I know he has been around for quite sometime.

    Yes, they do look like him .. especially his hairline. This is an awesome find if it is. I would love to talk to this friend of yours and get more info.

    Edit: Oh, there are two white guys. The one in the gi and the one with the crazy hair.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  5. #13130
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    Quote Originally Posted by themeecer View Post
    Edit: Oh, there are two white guys. The one in the gi and the one with the crazy hair.
    Crazy hair was his teacher.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  6. #13131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Here are those videos for easy reference.
    o h my god. No, this stuff is all wrong. It's self insighted stuff he created, it's not the real Chinese martial arts concepts.
    I can count at least 8 things right off the bad that are not correct.
    This is called Zombie KF by the old timers that are over 70 years old that I have ever trained with.

    This is karate influenced southern chinese folk stuff, as all Shalin Do stuff is (I can't bear to say Shaolin and desecrate it). Not true Chinese martial arts.

    It's wrong, wrong, wrong on so many counts.

    Plus, if this is meant to be advanced, I don't know what to say.

    We were doing proper body alignment work first before we ever learned any routines.

    "Dead man walking" as much teachers would say for zombie style KF.

    I don't know how I can even discuss it without actually teaching.

    "Let them eat dog poop if they want to eat dog poop" is what another of my teachers said about correcting others bad KF (with stronger word for poop).

    I'm sorry, you don't want to hear it and so will deny it.

    The fact that you don't realize and thus can't tell me why this stuff is incorrect is disturbing.

    Please tell me:

    1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

    2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

    3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

    4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

  7. #13132
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    you do realize that most of this falls on the shoulders of the Soards, right?? Much of what has been said about the man and the art has been imbelished by them , but rather than correcting the mistakes GMT let it alone.

    Sometimes correcting these things is worse than just allowing them to go on.

    Remember, that bad publicity is better than no publicity and it is possible that if retracted or corrected can bring about more questions and more problems than can be answered.

    Most of us agree that Ie Chang Ming brought a "version" of the Shaolin Martial arts he was taught to Indonesia which was influenced by his travels and the geographical locations in which he started his Shaolin Martial Arts School.

    There is nothing wrong with this per sey , but saying that it is pure and the original does have it's issues........

    I believe that these ideas came about from eliminating certain aspects of the story by simplify the origins to make it more attractive to Americans and for other marketing purposes, seeing as hybridizations and MMA hadnt become all the rage yet.

    We know that the forms we study are Chinese, many of them are from styles that can be found in other schools and there are some that are unique to the school.There are aspects of the teachings that have a certain "flavor" that it unique and not like CMA just like any other art that has been taken from one place and added to ad modified etc, so what??

    I understand why people have issues with the school, the teachers and what not but for many these things are just not a factor. Not everyones experience has been the same...

    I am seeing a new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now. It is time we all get back to basics and resolidify our foundation so that we have something strong and solid to continue to practice, teach and pass on too the next generation of students.

    All of the superficial things that everyone talks about real dont matter at all, if you like it do it , if you dont then dont do it....... its as simple as that .

    Hey Sal,

    I know you are every knowledgeable about CMA and it's history, but knocking other peoples styles/ systems when you have so much going for you seems to be counter productive and makes you look less than you are, I dont see what purpose it serves.

    I am sure if we looked into your backround and look at what you have done we could find things to ride you about...but we dont
    I'm not knocking it for the sake of knocking it for fun.

    I am sincerely saddened that so many truly good people have spent so much time and effort (and money) to learn incorrect foundational material (if they learned it at all) and they did so with great sincerity. And they have a deep belief that they are doing their best and learning the best stuff and so on.
    But, they didn't learn the most basic and most important aspects of real Chinese Martial Arts.
    Not for stylistic reasons, but just the very foundational material that makes real CMA work in the first place.

    (back in the late 80s /early 90s when I saw the Soards do some exhibitions, it was like cartoon KF moves from the movies. Footwork wrong, waist movements wrong, body alignment wrong, internal movement wrong, energy movement wrong, I can't go on. Maybe it was them that perpetuated improper body alignment and core mechanics by emphasizing collecting routines over known HOW and WHY the body must move a certain way or it doesn't work.)

  8. #13133
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    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    After spending years with SD, I relocated, spent a year in with what professed to be a tradional Chinese Kung Fu school, Xth Generation Grandmaster from China, in Tien Shien Pai. Can it get much more traditional or pure than that? I enjoyed it very much, would still be there but for other committments and travel. I liked it mostly I think because the forms and training were so similar to what I was in at SD. No, not the same forms, names, or that. Similar stances, punches, kicks, techniques. Very easily transitioned to those forms; Chin Na techniques taught at same level. Weapons progressed almost the same. I attended that School's weekend Hsing Ie seminar, very similar, nearly identical, to initial training in Hsing Ie as taught by GM Sin The. I did what you suggest and found just the opposite of what you are describing. Was it a fluke? Or do you suggest I try another one, or another one, until I find one so different that I am as offended as you are, by whatever experience you had?
    Tien Shien Pai is a modern 1940s amalgamated system developed by someone that was pretty much like Sin The. He made it all up (history and origin) and based the style on real martial art routines from various systems. That system teaches a hodgepodge of material from all over.

    Same as Sin The's material is based on actual real routines, its not alien stuff not found anywhere on earth.

    Real true deep Chinese Martial Arts don't teach a ton of forms.
    You spend years learning how and why to do core body mechanics and movements, but they also teach how even the stretching and warm up moves can be used for self defense. Though they may give you deep and long term learning of the foundational material, they right away emphasize being able to defense yourself using everyday natural movements, so no time is wasted.
    Every single school or person I learned CMA from in the late 70s, 80s, etc taught this way. Efficiency and Effectiveness from day one. How and Why from day one.

  9. #13134
    There are people who spend 80-90 hours a week playing Guitar Hero....biggest waste of time I can think of. However I'm not going to get on a BB and tell them they are doing wrong.

  10. #13135
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?
    Hmm, that old guy is showing correct body mechanics and core alignment.
    Why didn't this get transmitted to SD?
    Maybe Sin The is keeping things from the "guai lo" and purposefully teaching incorrect? Or maybe he wasn't such a good student after all? 'In the kingdom of the blind even a one eyed man is king', eh?

  11. #13136
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    There are people who spend 80-90 hours a week playing Guitar Hero....biggest waste of time I can think of. However I'm not going to get on a BB and tell them they are doing wrong.
    Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
    They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
    You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

    Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

    Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

    I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.

  12. #13137
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    Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification.
    I am not sure I ever made that statement although I might have said he was full of poo poo for other reasons.

    I will add that the old man in the pictures does not look to be build the same way as to the paintings. But that could be attributed to artistic impression.....
    "Pain heals, chicks dig scars..Glory lasts forever"......

  13. #13138
    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Well, they are playing a game, not learning to play guitar.
    They are having fun and developing their hand eye coordination and motor skills. And some places use it as therapy to keep alzheimer's from further developing.
    You can switch to a regular hand held unit instead of the toy guitar and still be able to play (actually you can play the game better).

    Are you saying that doing Shalin Do routines is like the equivalent of playing Guitar Hero?

    Ha, I think you would get more out of playing Guitar Hero.

    I have met quite a few young people (most females for some reason) that played Guitar Hero for a long time and then were able to learn real guitar pretty quickly, they understood the fretboard, fingering, timing, rhythm, melody, and so on.
    What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

    In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!

  14. #13139
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    What I am saying is that I don't care what kind of martial arts you are doing. And guess what? No one else really does either. In fact a 100 years from now there is not going to be anybody around that cared that you did martial arts, played guitar, played video game or anything. It's simply not important. It's not going to save lives. It's not a work of art that will survive the ages, it's just something you did and enjoyed.

    In the same vein there are dozens of people studying SD that enjoy it. They absolutely don't care that you feel sad because they are doing it incorrectly. And guess what? The fact that you think they are doing it incorrectly doesn't mean anything. People are not going to stave because a group of folks are doing Shao-lin Do somewhere. Also, I don't know of anyone who's going to build a shine to honor you just because your're doing the "right" kung Fu!

    boo hoo, poor little kitty. Everything ends up being just a dream or masturbation.

    CMA is about 4,000 years old, and unless people all die, will still be here in 100 years.

  15. #13140
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Long story, but the guy who gave them to me said his teacher (the white guy) studied with Ie. Golden Tiger and some other SDers said he was full of **** because Ie never trained non-Chinese, so he sent me the pics for verification. They look an awful lot like the paintings, don't they?
    It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

    The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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