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Thread: WSL Ving Tsun - Sifu Cliff Au Yeung - Blindfold Gor Sau Training

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    LOL Graham. Yes, someone has just questioned if, perhaps, PB might have misinterpreted something.

    Take a deep breath. In your mind go to a happy place.
    Nope nothing. In fact unlike some people PB didn't study under WSL by himself. There were many other groups of people present over a very long time that all say the same thing. In fact I was only talking to somebody about it recently who said nothing has changed from day 1. Its all the same stuff WSL taught them and PB stands by that. When you have whole groups of people that trained for a long time under WSL's guidance I tend to believe what they say rather than you numptys

    Your go.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    David Peterson is fluent in Mandarin and can speak Cantonese yet he and my Sifu have different understandings of WSLVT. Why do you think that is LFJ? You think PB has misinterpreted it because he cannot speak the lingo?
    Well, let's see. Both had personal training with WSL, but one could also communicate directly with him and understand the words of explanation and detail as they came out his mouth. That same guy's explanation of a concept matches the meaning of its name. The other guy, as I gather from you, has mislabeled a different concept with this same name, a name that doesn't fit it at all... So... yeah.

    I know which one you think is better, obviously, but PB is still incorrect in labeling the concept you describe as "LSJC". What you describe is LLHS, and you apparently lack the actual concept that the phrase "LSJC" refers to. But you seem firm and content with it, so...

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Your go.
    Not my go, or turn, at all.

    You are arguing with the words of Yip Man. If PB (and the group of those he trained with) think Yip Man was wrong in what he said, well... I think that is crazy.
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    What you describe is LLHS, and you apparently lack the actual concept that the phrase "LSJC" refers to. But you seem firm and content with it, so...
    Ok here is MY interpretation............

    Do you have another interpretation for LLHS then?
    Loi Lau is about intercepting an attack. During this attack we must try to cut the opponent off theoretically with something more superior. Ideally it will be a strike or flurries of strikes. How this pans out depends on the situation. LSJC is present in Loi Lau. It has to be or we will be stood still and not be able to take advantage of chances that may be present. The incoming attack could be any attack from any limb. It cannot possibly be chrystalized to just an arm or arms. Loi Lau is part of everything you do. We are always intercepting and trying to attack the opponent in the half beat. Using Sun Tzu's analogy when the army is half way across the bridge.....................

    As well as Loi Lau we must use Hoi Sung. This keeps us in permanent contact with the opponents structure (not their arms). If he tries to evade or retreat we must follow and maintain striking distance. Loi Lau and LSJC are always inside Hoi Sung.

    Lat Sau Jik Chung is every action. It comes from training the whole structure correctly through the forms and chi sau. The idea to always drill forward at any given opportunity. This idea allows us to always press the opponent and take advantage of chances to attack. Obstacles are sometimes never there but the ideas and movement always remain the same. If obstacles are put in the way be it from an attack or just an opponent trying to protect themselves the skill built up in Chi Sau -Gor sau - Sparring teach us to continue the attack and find opportunities to strike using angles, paks, juts, bongs etc and by trying to turn the opponent to a point where they are at their weakest. All these things are designed to opent the way for the punch should there be any problem.
    If we engage the opponents arms and fight them square on we restrict ourselves from being able to hitting with both fists equally so we have a unique way to use the elbow to deflect and protect whist the hands are punching or travelling/recycling to punch. Chum Kiu teaches this idea where as Siu Lim Tau prepares for it.
    The dummy further develops these ideas whilst giving one striking power, precision in punching and timing.

    LLHSLSJC is a continuous cycle prevalent in every single action of the Ving Tsun fighter. They are not separated. They are one. To apply them all correctly takes time and constant effort.

    The idea of LLHSLLSJC being primarily for contacting the arm, sticking to the arm and if the arm isn't there or is removed at any given point we punch is a massive failiure in today's Wing Chun.
    Last edited by Graham H; 07-25-2013 at 06:15 AM.

  5. #65
    Philipp speaks and understands Chinese. BUT when he joined WSL he did not so WSL had to physically or by diagram etc... explain what he meant when teaching pb.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Philipp speaks and understands Chinese. BUT when he joined WSL he did not so WSL had to physically or by diagram etc... explain what he meant when teaching pb.
    Also Cliff Au Yeung was responsible for a lot of translating in the early days until WSL and PB could speak directly to each other.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Also Cliff Au Yeung was responsible for a lot of translating in the early days until WSL and PB could speak directly to each other.
    Yes, he saw the cay clip of blindfold with us ; )

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Literally, yes. That's what LSJC means. Of course not the concept you're describing, because that is not "LSJC", even though you call it that.

    I get the feeling PB doesn't speak Chinese? Maybe there was some misinterpretation on his part. You're calling something by a name that doesn't fit it at all... If it has nothing to do with the opponent's arm, why is the opponent's arm in its name?

    What you describe is LLHS, but you never mention that half of the phrase. I wonder if you have a different interpretation of what it means too?
    I think you are misinterpreting LSJC. You talk of meeting an obstruction and breaking that obstruction. I don't think LSJC is to do with contact. It is to do with coming in and exerting pressure either as a strike or as stance movement when there is a chance, any chance. Opponent leaves a gap: LSJC, eat up the space, fill the gap
    Last edited by guy b.; 07-25-2013 at 06:56 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    I think you are misinterpreting LSJC. You talk of meeting an obstruction and breaking that obstruction. I don't think LSJC is to do with contact. It is to do with hitting when there is a chance to hit. Opponent leaves a gap: LSJC
    LSJC is just the intent to drive forward and develop the skill to continue, continue, continue via the correct structure and use of it. We don't know what will be in front of us until it happens so there are no applications.

  10. #70
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    @Graham

    I agree with the method you describe in general, but I don't think you are using the terms properly.

    Yes, people misinterpret terms like Biu-ji and Cham-kiu, but their interpretations still have to do with "fingers" and "bridges", they just misunderstand what they refer to.

    On the other hand, Lat-sau describes an action of someone flinging their arms in anger. Picture their arms come apart and their center is wide open. The opponent's arms are removed from the center. The phrase LSJC says when this happens you strike forward.

    This term gives the mental picture of an opponent's arms leaving center, but this is the term you use to refer to just moving your structure forward and it has nothing to do with the opponent's arms? Not strange?

    It doesn't seem you're missing some meaning somewhere?

  11. #71
    Well, let's see. Both had personal training with WSL, but one could also communicate directly with him and understand the words of explanation and detail as they came out his mouth. That same guy's explanation of a concept matches the meaning of its name. The other guy, as I gather from you, has mislabeled a different concept with this same name, a name that doesn't fit it at all... So... yeah.

    You are very wrong!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    I think you are misinterpreting LSJC. You talk of meeting an obstruction and breaking that obstruction. I don't think LSJC is to do with contact. It is to do with coming in and exerting pressure either as a strike or as stance movement when there is a chance, any chance. Opponent leaves a gap: LSJC, eat up the space, fill the gap
    That would have been covered already in the first half of the phrase LLHS-LSJC... Check back a few posts.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    So I think it is a weak argument to say to suggest that maybe this was humor, that he gave an interview and laced it with false information as, what, some kind of joke? Considering he rarely gave interviews, it would be strange for him to give one and then fill it with unicorns.
    Look what Yip Man left behind. Obviously he was a complete pi$$taker and found it hilarious to seed wrong information left right and centre. He even taught his own sons some questionable stuff

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    @Graham

    I agree with the method you describe in general, but I don't think you are using the terms properly.

    Yes, people misinterpret terms like Biu-ji and Cham-kiu, but their interpretations still have to do with "fingers" and "bridges", they just misunderstand what they refer to.

    On the other hand, Lat-sau describes an action of someone flinging their arms in anger. Picture their arms come apart and their center is wide open. The opponent's arms are removed from the center. The phrase LSJC says when this happens you strike forward.

    This term gives the mental picture of an opponent's arms leaving center, but this is the term you use to refer to just moving your structure forward and it has nothing to do with the opponent's arms? Not strange?

    It doesn't seem you're missing some meaning somewhere?
    No I don't agree! What if he kicks, head butts, grabs or dives?? What if you can't strike forward at that moment? Its not LSJC?

    I wouldn't read too much into mental pictures derived from the Cantonese translations. I used to make that mistake. In fact I started learning the language up until a point I realized it was pointless. About the time I met PB

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Look what Yip Man left behind. Obviously he was a complete pi$$taker and found it hilarious to seed wrong information left right and centre. He even taught his own sons some questionable stuff
    Agreed.........

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