Wing Chun sparring

[Katsu Jin Ken]

Okay. I utilize the flinch instinct with a cover. I train my flinch to automatically through up a cover hand when I am off guard. Its not natural to parry this way but it can become natural.

But I would love to hear how do you build a combative acticon from flinching???

Is it through high intensitiy fighting? Or low intense drilling?

combative action from flinching dont flinch just practice not flinching or just close your eyes and let someone hit you in the face (not hard) just enough to get the feel of things

[m1k3]

I agree, this has been an interesting thread!

I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:

1. Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won't be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn't for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.

2. Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.

What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent's conditioning and fighting heart.

So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.

[Yoshiyahu]

Personally I think a skilled WC fighter will still look like he is doing WC even against someone who is better than he is. The difference is he will look like a guy doing WC getting beat up. Theres a difference between Fighting with WC and winning oppose to fighting with WC and getting the snot knock out of you.


Win or Loose your art shouldn't degrade to a halleluyah kick boxer.

Your structure and applications should still resemble WC. If it doesn't that is due to your lack of using actual WC to fight with. Many people take concepts of WC and fight with them. But just because you fight with the concepts and principals doesn't mean your doing WC? You must also use the hand techniques, structure, footwork, Theory and Concepts to do look like your doing WC?

Some choose to use concepts and principals only because they don't like to start off loosing when they spar. Thats why some schools teach you shouldnt fight with your WC until you have learn atleast Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Gee. Doing Chi sau begins to give you muscle memory on how to use your structure and hand techniques. You should gradually go from Chi sau to Fighting.

But I believe if you start engraining the WC structure and techniques in the beginning and force them fight only use WC structure, footwork and techniques then that person after a year or two will be formidable using nothing but WC with out degrading to halleluyah kickboxer.

I agree, this has been an interesting thread!

I think the most interesting part is the fact that the majority of people here are in violent agreement with each other. The major points have been:

1. Sparring is good. This is the closest you can get to fighting in a training environment. You should spar the whole continuum from light to heavy as they all have good and bad points. You should spar against people from other styles, then you won't be surprised when someone does something unexpected and you get to see what works and doesn't for you against different types of opponents. This is the part of your training where you pick up your fighting abilities. I know sparring is not fighting but as I said it is the closest you can get in a training environment.

2. Drills and other training can be good also. They develop the attributes that you will need when sparring or fighting. This training includes cardio, strength training, drills ( solo an two man), hitting the pads, working the dummy or heavy bag. All of this gives you skills that are useful in a fight or sparring match but they do not teach you how to fight or spar.

What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your oponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change. You also have to take into account you and your opponent's conditioning and fighting heart.

So, in any given match your wing chun will look like whatever you can get to work against that particular opponent at that particular time. There are too many variables to be able to say it will look like this or that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change." (M1K3)
...............................

The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range...the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)...and do it consistently enough...without help by borrowing from other systems.

THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.

As I said earlier on this thread, this "question" doesn't even arise with other systems ("how will it look in fighting")...hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)

This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems...

but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!

The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.

[m1k3]

Victor, this isn't just a wing chun issue. Boxing and Muay Thai ran into the same problems in the early UFC fights. It didn't mean they couldn't be used any more it just meant that they needed to adapt to new ranges and grappling (standing and on the ground). It then happened to the bjj guys when a bunch of wrestlers figured out how to add some submission defense and ground and pound to their toolboxes.

I like Wing Chun, it is a good tool to have. It reminds me a lot of dirty boxing with clinching, close strikes, elbows and knees.

There is no complete or best art. Its kind of like the game of rock, scissors and paper. If you only do rock it could be a long night if you get in a fight.

[Pacman]

hi victor

i think our discussion got derailed...i responded to you about this here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...5&postcount=86

id like to hear your opinions

"What I really find interesting is the argument of how wing chun will look in a fight. The problem is that it isn't just your choice alone, your opponent has something to say about that. Fighting, and I am including hard sparring in this, is a yin and yang type of thing. I agree with T when he says that wing chun looks like wing chun only when you have a major skill advantage over your opponent. The more skilled your opponent the more the dynamics of the fight will change." (M1K3)
...............................

The crux of the matter is addressed here. But I have to call it as I see it, and as much I still love doing wing chun after some 34 years now, and as much as I believe that this close quarter striking style has much to offer at its range...the fact is that it lacks enough tools to get to its preferred range - and stay there long enough to win the encounter - against some of the elite fighting systems of today (ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, and quality mma that includes quality wrestling/grappling)...and do it consistently enough...without help by borrowing from other systems.

THAT'S WHY THE WHOLE ISSUE IS BEING DEBATED AND ARGUED SO VEHEMENTLY.

As I said earlier on this thread, this "question" doesn't even arise with other systems ("how will it look in fighting")...hey dudes, boxing always looks like boxing, the same for Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, BJJ, etc.)

This is a question that is never even raised in those other sytems...

but it is a question that never goes away with wing chun. THINK ABOUT THAT !!!

The system has its limitations, and the quicker people stop denying that, the quicker the system (in all its facets and lineages) will get better.

[Yoshiyahu]

hi victor

i think our discussion got derailed...i responded to you about this here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...5&postcount=86

id like to hear your opinions

Whats the discussion suppose to be about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

1. "sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?" (Pacman)
...............................................

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
.............................................


2. "lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
.......................................

**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

[Vajramusti]

The intense portion of a fight is when leg or hand contact is possible. If you can reach them they can reach you and vice versa. The real question involves ways to handle contact and whether one has practiced top quality wing chun footwork. Ah well-same old same old points.

joy chaudhuri.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun short range is as follows.

Attack the outer gates and inner gates by hitting your opponent in the face and throat with your vertical punches and gan sau.


Wing Chun Long Range is as follows.

Attack your opponents guards. Constantly punch them, Jum them, Pak them and Gan them as hard as you can. Constantly stomp his foot or knee. Kick his shins and knees. Continously stay away from his feet when he tries to kick your head off. If you can intercept the kick then step on the opposite knee. Everytime your opponents hand or foot is in reach hit it. Move around alot. Feint and stop being a target. Tire your opponent out so he makes an mistake. Constantly counter every long range technique he throws.

[JPinAZ]

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.

While it's true that WC does use a 'shorter range' punch, that doesn't mean it has to bridge with those close range shapes. Nor does it mean that 'WC' only exists once you are in that range. WC has long and short range bridging abilities, which allows the practitioner to engage the opponent from what some term as the outside range, in 180 degrees, to get into a range and position where they can use those shorter range 'WC punches' effectively.

To say WC is close range only because the fighter is 'more squared up' when striking is a misrepresentation of the system IMO. To say WC is just close range striking system would be ignoring the bridging aspects of WC, which start with Bai Jong and allows the practitioner a chance to connect with the opponent safely, bridge the gap, controll the line and apponent's COG and safely deliver strikes from a position of advantage - From longer range into closer-in striking range.

**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

While I agree that it's harder to fight someone with a reach, weight, height or skill advantage, WC concepts and theroies still apply regardless.
IMO, if there was a De La Hoya vs. Lewis fight, Oscar's best strategy would be simply to run
Lenox outweighs him by over 100 pounds of muscle!

[Pacman]

ok i see what you are saying. i didnt catch the first part because in YKS WC we have many strikes where we turn our body. we start from a squared off position with our elbows in, but we turn when striking so i guess by your definition we do have long range weapons.

regardless, in the de la hoya example yes you are right if he cant get in he will lose...but thats an IF. there is footwork and a myriad of techniques for moving in. even if you mixed your WC with the longer range strikes you are talking about, that still wont help you get in. that will just increase your reach by a few inches. you still need the skill to move inside

my whole point about the spear and sword analogy is that the spear has a longer reach yes, but just because it has a longer reach it is not considered the ultimate weapon by any means because once you bypass the spears reach with a sword you can then dominate

1. "sorry if you have covered this in a previous post, but can you tell me as to why Wing Chun has no long range game. I read that you said it does not, but why? I know the typical WC strategy is to enter and to get close to try to neutralize our opponents (as that is our specialty), but why a WC person who wished to stay on the outside and exchange w/o entering could not do so successfully?" (Pacman)
...............................................

***BECAUSE the style uses vertical punches wherein the shoulders are almost always squared up to each other, thereby effectively limiting reach...as opposed to, for example, a boxer's lead, or a rear cross, or a round overhand, all of which EXTEND the arms to a further distance due to rotating so that the shoulders are NOT squared up to each other...and because the footwork is more elusive and dynamic than what is typically used in WC - making for a better delivery system and a possible quick retreat out to the preferred longer range.
.............................................


2. "lets say that WC has no long range game. that would be like the equivalent of two boxers where one had a significant reach advantage. so if you put oscar de la hoya vs lennox lewis, do you think oscar would lose all composure and skill, forget all footwork and timing and just do a kamikaze attack against lewis? i dont. he would be at a disadvantage, but he could use other skills to get in close.

another analogy is with weapons since you brought them up. the spear was not necessarily the best weapon and could be defeated by shorter weapons. even the scholars sword". (Pacman)
.......................................

**AND if the smaller boxer is not able to get close, ie.-de la hoya, he's going to lose. There are no other skills for him to use in a fight like that. As for the spear, you can only beat it with a shorter weapon if you can get very close. LOL at doing that against a skilled fighter with a spear. Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

If give this another try, but I suspect that no matter what, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

In the following vid, which lasts for 2:40 - pay particular attention to the first 1:10 of it. It was made by yours truly, and the first 1:10 might throw some light on the "reach" and "distance" issues I've been addressing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1d1OyedoDE

AND THEN, watch part2...

which is 2:05 minutes long - with particular attention to what's being said and done around 1:35 of the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7rdD...eature=related

[Pacman]

in the first video you talk about reach and distance issues taht were apparent between the tall guy and the short guy. i get that.

but i dont see how that is unique to WC. even if you were boxer vs boxer--if you fight a guy with a longer reach than you, you will have those issues too

with the way you do your WC punches, then yes you will have less reach than if you did boxing style punches, but its all relative. at some point whether boxer or WC'er you will fight someone where you have a significant reach disadvantage.

[Ultimatewingchun]

If I use longer range boxing moves, punches, footwork, etc. right from the starting gate (ie.- long range) - then I have a better chance of getting to the shorter wing chun ranges safely...

because then I'm attacking with all sorts of weaponry that doesn't exist within wing chun....

instead of using limited long range weaponry (that does exist within WC)...

and/or....

instead of just playing defense and waiting until he enters my space with an attack of his own...

because the best defense is not defense - it's offense.