Training

[Sihing73]

You know most of those who I have met or read about of a high level of skill hardly ever argued with others.
If you are secure in your approach then so be it, no need or benefit of always trying to put differing views down.


LFJ, I am going to step outside of my normal response for a moment and ask you something, and this does relate to Training so it is relevant to this thread.

You have made statements that you do not train applications, not in forms or apparently elsewhere in your approach to WC/VT/WT.

So my question is:

When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses? While I agree that there can be modifications and your response can and should vary depending on what is given, but don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?

If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.

[guy b.]

You know most of those who I have met or read about of a high level of skill hardly ever argued with others.
If you are secure in your approach then so be it, no need or benefit of always trying to put differing views down.


LFJ, I am going to step outside of my normal response for a moment and ask you something, and this does relate to Training so it is relevant to this thread.

You have made statements that you do not train applications, not in forms or apparently elsewhere in your approach to WC/VT/WT.

So my question is:

When you practice Chi Sau, which from previous videos posted, it appears that you utilize the same movements other Yip Man lineages utilize.
So, that being the case, are you not actually training to apply techniques/applications within the framework of Chi Sau to respond to specific techniques.
In other words aren't you training to respond to specific actions or energy with specific responses? While I agree that there can be modifications and your response can and should vary depending on what is given, but don't you need to know and learn how to respond with something specific? At least in the beginning?

If not then please explain what you are using Chi Sau for if not training to respond in a preset pattern with some variations.

Chi sau is not fighting or a simulation of fighting. So learning applications from chi sau is a non-sequitur from the point of view of WSL VT. You can't fight from chi sau because the opponent can leave chi sau whenever they like. It is an artificial drill relying upon cooperation and designed to teach certain things relevant to fighting.

A similar method is "grinding arms" in some other southern chinese MA, although chi sau much more developed and flexible, and of course teaching aspects of a completely different system

[Sihing73]

Chi sau is not fighting or a simulation of fighting. So learning applications from chi sau is a non-sequitur from the point of view of WSL VT. You can't fight from chi sau because the opponent can leave chi sau whenever they like. It is an artificial drill relying upon cooperation and designed to teach certain things relevant to fighting.

A similar method is "grinding arms" in some other southern chinese MA, although chi sau much more developed and flexible, and of course teaching aspects of a completely different system

Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.

When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
If so then I would submit that you train applications.

[KPM]

Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.

Good luck!

[guy b.]

Okay, let's try to get an answer to something simple.

When you guys do Chi Sau (which no one is saying is fighting) do you use Taun, Bong and other "techniques"?
Do you ever use these "techniques" in fighting?
If so then I would submit that you train applications.

Tan is not a technique, it is a training methodology

There is no application of anything in chi sau as in fighting, therefore no applications are trained. Rather particular attributes are trained.

[Sihing73]

Tan is not a technique, it is a training methodology

There is no application of anything in chi sau as in fighting, therefore no applications are trained. Rather particular attributes are trained.

I wonder if you guys practice "Empty Chi"
Seems like getting any real answers is impossible, like trying to grasp mist.

So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are

Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?

When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.

Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application.
You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes".

Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.

Good Luck!!!

[guy b.]

I wonder if you guys practice "Empty Chi"
Seems like getting any real answers is impossible, like trying to grasp mist

I am happy to try and explain to you, I am sorry for any short answers; I am wary of KPM who is a troll hanging around this forum at the moment.

So you guys train "attributes" but you utilize the same shapes as others doing WC but you do it in some totally different way.
Of course this should make all of your guys awesome and unbeatable...................I am waiting to see where all of your fighters are

I don't think there is any need for sarcasm.

Your group makes attacks and derides TWC, which I do not train, yet who do you point to that stands tall and represents your approach in combat?
In TWC I would ask have any of your guys ever sparred with Rick Spain or any of his students?
Anyone ever crossed hands with Emin?

I am not deriding anyone. But neither am I idiotically enthusiastic about training methodologies I don't agree with. I am happy to live and let live as far as TWC is concerned. Unfortunately KPM is using TWC as a device to troll LFJ in a long argument spilling over from the snowflake-infested martial talk forum. It would probably take too long to explain the ins and outs of this boring conflict here and now, so I guess you will need to approach with an open mind if you want to converse.

Many people from WT and TWC have come to WSL VT. Sparring has happened. My opinion is what it is.

When one does not know something or is unable to explain it then it can lead others to question whether they are lying or just not smart enough to explain things for others to understand. Now, the inability to understand something could be the fault of the person asking the question. However, it can also be the fault of the one trying to provide the answer.

What do you want me to explain?

Taun is one of the seeds of Wing Chun. While it does teach attributes it is also used in application

Not in WSL VT. Tan is punch training, not a technique to apply in fighting

You are welcome to say that it does not however, I would then aks you to show any video where you guys actually spar yet fail to use any of the commonly recognized "techniques" of Wing Chun. I highly doubt you can do this. Instead I expect more of the same vague "we don't use applications or techniques, we use attributes.............I dare say if that is true it is highly unlikely any of you can use your approach for real. In other words, if you were to try and use your system you would have to use techniques or applications or you would simply get your butt handed to you for trying to use just "attributes"

Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

I won't hold my breath waiting as I know you can't produce anything within those parameters.

Good Luck!!!

It seems as if you have joined KPM in his trolling? I hope not.

The group I train with doesn't release sparring clips for public consumption. Here is a clip from a closely related group:

[Sihing73]

Guy B,

Believe it or not I am not interested in trolling or even arguing.
Just seems like there has been a bit of implications that a certain lineage is full of crap.
Everyone is welcome to their opinion but it is kind of unfair to lump an entire lineage into a specific crap pile.

If you research my posts you will find that I have been saying for years that each lineage has someone who can make that approach work for them.
Thus, every approach can be valid.
I do what I do because I like it and found it worked for my needs.

I like the forward energy and fairly constant attack in the clip.
Also would seem to reinforce the idea that a few core methods can be applied fairly well.

If you prefer to have a discussion offline then feel free to email or PM me.
Email is probably best to discuss anything of length.
I can promise to keep anything discussed private if that is your wish.

[guy b.]

A little bit of light sparring in this clip, starts about 1.22

[zuti car]

This is sparring ?

[KPM]

Back to the topic of training......since martials arts is undoubtedly a skill we are all trying to master, I thought this was another good article:

https://blog.todoist.com/2015/08/11/...any-new-skill/


This one is pretty good as well. It describes the stages of skill acquisition:

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpt...ll-individuals

[KPM]

Of course it would be easy to prove me wrong. You have asked for clips showing other using their approach in sparring. I submit you show the same thing. There is one caveat though, since you guys don't use applications or techniques nor do you train to use such, I would like to see a clip of any of your guys fighting and wining without the use of a single "application".

:

Jai Harmon is the only guy I can think of right now from the WSLVT lineage with real sparring clips up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA7rj7b_sM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFOwFLf3k0o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKfjS1aF_s


Jai is a good fighter. But I don't see any super special Wing Chun here, do you? He has a good low sweep. But wait a minute....that's an "application" isn't it?? I see lots of Pak Sau and Wing Chun blast (chain punching). I don't think I saw a single Bong/Lop combination to set anything up. And you see a LOT of Bong/Lop combinations in just about every clip of WSLVT training. And....I know, I know!......Chi Sau is not fighting and what they are training in those clips is not meant to be applied! But still, one would tend to think that if there is so much emphasis put on the attributes developed from that repeated Bong/Lop exchange structure....that something resembling it would show up in sparring. But that's just me.

[KPM]

I thought of someone else! Jerry Yeung is another WSLVT lineage guy that has some good clips up.

This one is labeled sparring, but isn't really. Some light Gor Sau work with one of his students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_xCxE3rCF4

Some light sparring here starting at 1:30. But not much to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqwNGUq60I

Jerry likes to reach out and use the "neck pulling hand" from the dummy form. Does that count as an "application"??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMyu5tNBtk


That's about it.