Ring Fu

[RenDaHai]

@Ronin

But you CAN do counter punching. It just doesn't score.

If you do it your way we end up with most of the fight bouncing off each others guard and circling and then clinching or hugging on the floor. Where as the reality of what Kung Fu is designed for is someone going hell for leather at you or vice a versa. My way the whole fight is 'heat'.

Because KF alsways states to avoid territorial violence (basically a d*ck measuring contest). ANd it is usually avoidable.

But Predatorial is not avoidable. If you apologise to a lion it won't care and will STILL eat you.

People who do Kung FU don't want to be good fighters, they want to be good defenders.

That is what it is designed for and so that is how it should be tested.

[sanjuro_ronin]

@Ronin

But you CAN do counter punching. It just doesn't score.

If you do it your way we end up with most of the fight bouncing off each others guard and circling and then clinching or hugging on the floor. Where as the reality of what Kung Fu is designed for is someone going hell for leather at you or vice a versa. My way the whole fight is 'heat'.

Because KF alsways states to avoid territorial violence (basically a d*ck measuring contest). ANd it is usually avoidable.

But Predatorial is not avoidable. If you apologise to a lion it won't care and will STILL eat you.

People who do Kung FU don't want to be good fighters, they want to be good defenders.

That is what it is designed for and so that is how it should be tested.

Honestly, I don't think you are correct in this, at all.
But to each their own.

[GeneChing]

Should we just adapt Kung Fu to the ring?

For example, just work off of a San Da base and then gradually introduce traditional techniques over time.

Sanda is Kung Fu adapted to the ring. While the roots of leitai have some history, Sanda as it is played now is fairly new. It emerged from the Chinese military and has evolved into an international sport.

[RenDaHai]

Honestly, I don't think you are correct in this, at all.
But to each their own.

Fair enough


Just to clarify for others my thoughts are that it comes down to Territorial Vs Predatorial Violence;

In the ring you both want to fight. That is like two animals fighting over territory. But in the real world this can be avoided generally by backing down. And when you do fight, it is easier because you are not afraid, you are angry. SO Kung fu doesn't deal so much with this type of fight. Ring Combat is all this type of fight.

However the unavoidable predatorial combat, the one where you have the disadvantage of fear and he has the initiative. This is the one that Kung Fu is designed for (also to play the part of the predator in this). The strategy has to be different. Attack is not always the best form of defense and counter punching is only worthwhile if it makes a good impact, NOT just to score a point.

A fight is as much psychological as physical. A scenario does something to address this and deals with more strategies.

I still say pracitce both types, but in this scenario you will see traditional Kung FU become mroe useful.

[David Jamieson]

adapted for the ring?

Why. there's a variety of choices of training methodologies to put on top of Kung Fu practice that can take any interested person into a sport fighting scenario.

For empty hand stuff anyway.
I doubt we'll ever see spear and sword fighting, or double axes being weilded against each other in a sport venue all too soon.

Besides, I do believe that is exactly the purpose of San Da.

[David Jamieson]

That's all fine and dandy BUT if you can't deal with an opponent in a controlled environment, that chances of doing so in an "uncontrolled' one is far, far less.
Just like if you can't beat one guy, the chances of being able to beat 2 is far less.

More variables in a less controlled environment. Upper hand goes to the superior weapon in that scenario. The small defeat the strong with superior weapons.

In a ring, you're matched by weight and such so it's an equal match up quite often. So, it can be anybodies win in that sense.

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

More variables in a less controlled environment. Upper hand goes to the superior weapon in that scenario. The small defeat the strong with superior weapons.

In a ring, you're matched by weight and such so it's an equal match up quite often. So, it can be anybodies win in that sense.

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

Like I said, if you can't be effective in a controlled environment...

[MightyB]

there is a huge difference between sport fighting and getting sucker punch with a pint glass over the head followed by a few fellas holding you down whilst another stomps you.

You really need to find better places to hang out

[David Jamieson]

Like I said, if you can't be effective in a controlled environment...

Yes, but that says nothing about what you are good at.
The controlled environment you are talking about is a kick,punch. throw and lock environment.

If a Kung Fu adept is best at weapons, why does he have to be regarded as less because he's not a great boxer?

Why don't people bag on judo for no striking? Why don't people bag on boxing for no wrestling? Why don't people bag on anything else in this forum except for Kung Fu and in particular there is this weird want to diminish the fullness of what's in kung fu to prove what?

That kung fu is a ring art? Use San Da. there, done.

I like all the limbs of Kung Fu. I don't have an issue with competitive fighting.
I do take umbrage at people who want to change an art form into a sport when it already has that component represented through san da as mentioned or in China with crossing hands etc.

Kung Fu has been adapted already in that sense. It doesn't change that people still want to learn to use spears or swords etc.

[David Jamieson]

You really need to find better places to hang out

I don't work in environments like that anymore. Got educated, I fly a desk and make way more money with way less risk than I did working a door or a bar.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, but that says nothing about what you are good at.

Of Course, unless what you are good at is fighting.
Then it has everything to do with that.
The point is that for all those that taut that kung fu is about real fighting with no rules in an uncontrolled environment, my point is that is you can't fight in a controlled one, the chances of you fighting in an uncontrolled one are gonna be worse.
Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

[MightyB]

That kung fu is a ring art? Use San Da. there, done.


Kung Fu has been adapted already in that sense. It doesn't change that people still want to learn to use spears or swords etc.

I misswrote what I was getting at - what I'm trying to say is for TCMA to adopt San Da training as a basic component of the art. So when you start training a TCMA - the first couple of months (or years) just focus on San Da with light sparring if you're not into sport stuff, and for those who are into sport, go more in depth with San Da and devote more time to it. After gaining some proficiency in san da type sparring, then go into more traditional training. I just think that would make for better martial artists all around.

[David Jamieson]

Of Course, unless what you are good at is fighting.
Then it has everything to do with that.
The point is that for all those that taut that kung fu is about real fighting with no rules in an uncontrolled environment, my point is that is you can't fight in a controlled one, the chances of you fighting in an uncontrolled one are gonna be worse.
Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

I am still not completely agreeing with this assessment. It's apples and oranges.

A controlled environment isn't full spectrum fighting. It is limited and rules are applied. So, the controlled environment is skill specific and doesn't say anything about the persons full ability to do harm and rather it makes a statement about how well trained they are to fight in that controlled environment.

IE: Muhammad Ali is a crappy wrestler and would get choked out in his prime in a controlled environment.

It doesn't matter who you are or what you train, if you are going to fight, you need the guts to fight. If you lose does that mean you suck? Even the best fighters in the world come and go. Do they suck because they can't win in a controlled environment that is limited in scope?

Kung Fu contains a sport element, or if someone wants that, they can go to any number of other places. Even my own sifu would train us differently from the regular curriculum if we were going to fight competitively. In which case, the training was geared to the venue and it's demands.

Kung Fu is more. To me an to a great deal many other people.

It also has plenty of ways of competing in form and so on.

But it doesn't have controlled environments for weapon fighting,,,because it just doesn't. Maybe we'll see some rubber-chuk fighting the future, but I for one would not pay to watch that. lol

[David Jamieson]

I misswrote what I was getting at - what I'm trying to say is for TCMA to adopt San Da training as a basic component of the art. So when you start training a TCMA - the first couple of months (or years) just focus on San Da with light sparring if you're not into sport stuff, and for those who are into sport, go more in depth with San Da and devote more time to it. After gaining some proficiency in san da type sparring, then go into more traditional training. I just think that would make for better martial artists all around.

A school that has a teacher that is well rounded already does this.
I understand there is a lot of crappy schools out there, but if you are going to a Kung Fu school that doesn't have a san da or si yao da component, then I would say you've made a bad choice of schools.

All good Kung Fu schools have that guts first / condition second / technique last ladder.

[RenDaHai]

Its one case or the other:
If you kick butt in the street and get your butt kicked in the ring, it means that ring fighting requires more skill and fighting ability.
( and no I am not talking about one fight).
If you kick butt in the ring and get your butt kicked in the street, it means the street requires more fighting ability and skill than the ring.
It's just that simple.

Na, its always gonna be a paper rock scissors kind of thing. Besides physical skill is one thing, the psychological aspect is another entirely. The Psych aspect is more important in the 'street'. I'd say that is largely independent of physical skill. So the two will not be as linked as you say above.

BTW I don't think there is a single good MA or reliable method, Chinese or otherwise for training this Psychological aspect.