Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

[Graham H]

I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.

People don't need Martial Arts in order to be able to fight. It's an evolutionary thing that we are all capable of. Some people are better than others. That's life. If the forms weren't so important generally then why have them at all?

Most systems of Ving Tsun descend into BS frenzied kick boxing at best. Put two people together and tell them to punch and kick each for a year and they will be good fighters. In that case no need for Ving Tsun.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

(((SLT is the most important fundamental text book for those who are interested in an Ip Man approach to kung fu training. SLT has different sections- each with principles built into them while developing structure strength. I have been doing wing chun since 1976- except for three days I have done slt every day sometimes more than once a day.
When done right slt has breathing principles. The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

The chum kiu builds principles of full body motion on top pf the structure developed in slt.
You never finish mastering wing chun if you are serious about the wing chun way. There are other ways and depending on the competence of the teaching
and the practice and the experience- there are diversities in wing chun training..))Joy

[Hendrik]

Combat is based on momentum and force flow.
There are two core handling needed to handle momentum and force flow, and they are receiving and sending


Thus, in the wck core kuit, it says, come Receive, goes Send.
SNT is to develop the foundation of Receiving and sending.


emei snake engine is the core design and embedded in SNT to
develop the short strike art receiving and sending.
Simple, sophisticated, elegance, and complete.


Similar to yin and yang , receiving and sending manifest to millions of things
That is called

Ten thousand things source from the small area.

in the emei 12 zhuang kuit.



Those who has developed the receiving and sending ability stays in peace,
no matter how the momentum changes.
For there is only two handling needed------ receiving and sending


If one don't know this summary of wck, and SNT to develop it, what does one train and expert it?


Without the six core elements and seven bows handling, how can one master receiving and sending?


such a simple thing open under the public, but ignored by most in the past 160 years.

Wck is simple, sophisticated, and elegance.
Like water, it only do receiving and sending in the direct, roundabout, and return to origin momentum.



SNT is enough for the core. No need to patch up with other stuffs while don't know it's purpose and goal.
Missing this above is totally missing the key of wck .

[Graham H]

The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

[Ali. R]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training.


Take care,

[Graham H]

That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training.


Take care,

I know exactly why "i" practice these things but the reasons why across the lineages mostly contradict each other. maybe you could offer your opinion as well as Joy. After all they are most important and maybe we could benefit from your years of mastery!

[Hendrik]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Fook or any move, train Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even, effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267479]So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.[/QUOTE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Repetition helps in the embedding of the skills. Doing the first section slowly helps develop CONTROL over every aspect of the motions.
The transitions from tan, fok and bong helps control the flow of hand motions around you in protecting the body and mounting the attacks.
Of course there is much more to this.


Sure one can fight without knowing forms but the forms are the gates to the wing chun way of doing it.

[Graham H]

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really?

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?!

[Graham H]

The transitions from tan, fok and bong helps control the flow of hand motions around you in protecting the body and mounting the attacks.
Of course there is much more to this.

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

[Hendrik]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

Wck receive and send, block punch are not primary alternative

[Hendrik]

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really?

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?!

Read Gm Ipman interview on his description of wck .
The same wck him or me,
I am only filling the gap on how to get there with emei 12 zhuang technology in the SNT design.

[Ali. R]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

Not just blocking punches, but; “Yut Fook Yee” or “Da”.


Take care,

[KPM]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me.

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

I agree with Graham. Even boxing has "forms" to an extent. IMHO, western boxing trains forms in a San Sik format. Every time a boxer drills a combination of 3 movements that is essentially a San Sik. They learn the basic combos like "jab, cross, hook" and then work it on the pads, against the heavy bag, and with a partner.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me.

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

Nope, no need for forms.
There are many MA that don't use forms like SLT in their development and training and their practitioners do quitter well for themselves.
To suggest that WC needs any form is to suggest that it is inferior to any MA that doesn't require them.
I am sure WC was WC before SLT came to be, I don't think that the creator(s) of WC developed SLT or any form and THEN developed WC.

That said, like I mentioned, if a form that was developed for a system is use din the way that it was intended, then it will be beneficial for that system.