Apologies to Terence Niehoff...

[Sihing73]

P.S. To say that all opponents on the street are scrubs is a joke. The fact is you don't know WHO you are going to meet on the street. They may have training, they may not. That is why it IMO that environment provides just as many difficulties as the ring would, it's called UNPREDICABILITY.

Hi James,

I totally agree that to discount those one meets on the street as ALL being of no or low skill is foolish. However, one thing I have found to be true is that the percentage of those looking for trouble with the discipline to actually train to a high level are few. I believe, that most that attain a higher skill level somewhere along the way lose the tase for causing trouble, of course this is a generalism and not truth. There are always exceptions. Also, if someone just got out of jail they will most likely be in excellent shape physically, much more so than the average persona and this also has an impact.

Besides, most fights on the street involve multiple opponents and weapons. One of the reason I stress avoidance as the best method. Also another reason why I CHEAT when I fight.

[chusauli]

Dave,

You're absolutely correct. One doesn't need altercations on the street, as they can escalate to unnecessary violence and expensive legal aftermath.

When you study firearms, you suppose everyone else is armed too. That's why an armed society is a polite society. I always assume people are carrying weapons and have mental imbalance on the street. Its better to walk away from possible oncoming problems. You should know that awareness is your best asset. Cheat only to buy you time to get away.

Developing your art, you find people you can train with and get better with. Crosstraining keeps you humble and well rounded. Specialists help you uncover areas you're weak in. I believe sports are a healthy outlet for serious training, bringing out the best in your timing, skills, etc.

Best regards,

[Sihing73]

I always assume people are carrying weapons and have mental imbalance on the street.

Hi Robert,

I think I visited one of your classes in NYC when I was with Allan Fong.

Is that where you learned of my Mental Imbalance

Seriously, it is always best to train and explore other options. The only thing I feel is that too many venture out without first building a firm foundation in their chosen art. The reason some things don't work is that the time and effort to develope in one art has not been taken.

The concept of MMA or crosstraining is nothing new. Heck, the idea of training in other arts is a time honored tradition in most "traditional" arts. It was common practice in many instances to go and get additional or advanced training from others, but only after firmly grounding yourself in your original art, then building upon that foundation. I think you will find most "Warrior" or true "Martial" systems would explore all types of approaches in order to better prepare for combat. Consider the Samuria and the number of arts they trained in.

I have a friend who does Pekiti Tirsia and he is a very intense person. His martial skill is excellent but his balance with life is, IMHO, off. I have told him many times that if I were living in a time where my Martial Skills would prolong my life or I would face combat on a daily basis then I would train differently. When I was a Police Office or in the Military, I did train more intensely.

Now that I am 45 and work with computers and live in the mountains I do not need to be on edge and ready to fight all the time. I prefer to train with this in mind. I also opt to focus more on my family and devote most of my time to them. I do train my girls, but it is on how to defend if needed as well as the importance of not fighting.

I like my approach, for me. For others theirs is fine as well. Now if I thought it likely that a team of Angry Ninjas were going to attack my home and family then I would train with that in mind. However, as that is unlikely to happen I am content to train to maintain my low skill level and enjoy life.

[sihing]

Hi James,

I totally agree that to discount those one meets on the street as ALL being of no or low skill is foolish. However, one thing I have found to be true is that the percentage of those looking for trouble with the discipline to actually train to a high level are few. I believe, that most that attain a higher skill level somewhere along the way lose the tase for causing trouble, of course this is a generalism and not truth. There are always exceptions. Also, if someone just got out of jail they will most likely be in excellent shape physically, much more so than the average persona and this also has an impact.

Besides, most fights on the street involve multiple opponents and weapons. One of the reason I stress avoidance as the best method. Also another reason why I CHEAT when I fight.

Hi Dave,

I work security in a hotel, where drug and alcohol abuse is wide spread. Been there a year now, and I haven't gotten really close to a fight yet. Someone last week took one of my shifts, he fills in for me once in awhile, well he was in the parking lot at the time that someone was in the process of stealing a car that was still running. The car crashed into a landmark on the property, the assailiant got out and he ran after him (which is not our job by the way, and totally unnecessary for our job description), anyways he caught up to the guy and tried to subdue the guy for the cops, the guy took a swing at him and he had to take him down (he is Martial Artist as well, but with a different attitude than mine). I found it interesting when I came back to work and read his report. The guy is nice enough but has the wrong temperment for the job, as situations like this have happened before and he only works the occasional security shift. He's looking for trouble, whereas I am not. The attitude difference effects the outcome your shift. I used to work in security years ago as well, hospitals, other hotels, etc, and have never had any real problems, where others have.

I agree, that weapons are usually involved in street altercations, and are too be avoided if all possible. For general Martial Arts training I agree with Robert, crosstraining is good and it can round out your skills and bring about areas of improvement and/or where one may need some work. It's all good, that is if that is where your interest lie. For me, if I had they time I would love to take a MT class once in awhile, I would love the cardio workout, and it would take me out of the strictness the VT cirriculum provides, no problem with that.

James

[Sihing73]

Hi James,

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

Shoot, I guess I would have to be considered a cross trainer as I do Wing Chun, Pekiti Tirsia and Kuntau/Silat. I find that blending the arts with a Wing Chun foundation works just fine for me. Of course I am not looking to be the next great UFC or MMA champion either. Of course, with my deadly skills I would win every match or if I lost perhaps I could get the ring girls to console me, either way I'd be a winner.

I have already had several death matches and to date I have only lost two

[sihing]

Hi James,

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

Shoot, I guess I would have to be considered a cross trainer as I do Wing Chun, Pekiti Tirsia and Kuntau/Silat. I find that blending the arts with a Wing Chun foundation works just fine for me. Of course I am not looking to be the next great UFC or MMA champion either. Of course, with my deadly skills I would win every match or if I lost perhaps I could get the ring girls to console me, either way I'd be a winner.

I have already had several death matches and to date I have only lost two

Only several, jeez Dave what planet are you living on. According to Terrence, your chances of meeting someone with competent skills and aggression is high, so you'd better take his advice and start becoming paranoid and obsessive/compulsive towards your training, lol...

Seriously, we only do things in life that give us pleasure. In this day and age the chances of getting into an altercation (that is if you are actively aware) are very slight. So why someone would want to train for the sole purpose of getting really really good at fighting, when all the other guy has to do is draw a gun and shoot you, is unreasonable IMO. Enjoy life, enjoy Martial Arts, be practical and realistic about what you are doing, and hopefully you gain some skills and learn a thing or two about yourself in the process of it all.

Moderation is the key to life....

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What I don't get about Terence is that nobody here on this forum is claiming Martial superiority, or ultimate ability to fight anyone anywhere anytime with guaranteed success. So for me it is obvious his reasons for repeating himself are for self serving reasons, basically his ego is getting a kick out it, otherwise why do it? I for one would get bored fast hanging around a TKD forum all day trying to tell these guys to keep their arms up when they fight, why would I? Maybe because I like to hear my own voice, maybe it makes me feel superior, like I know something they don't???" (James/sihing)

"I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel." (Dave/Sihing73)

.................................................. ........


***IMO, these two quotes should comprise a closed, one post thread with a permanent sticky here on the wing chun forum.

The need to crosstrain and to workout/spar/roll competitively against people trained in other arts is very important, imo; but to obsess about this to the point that some people do betrays some very questionable motives, and I think James hits the nail on the head about what exactly those motives are. It's about chest beating with a non-stop drone that also employs a constant put-down of wing chun concepts, principles, forms, drills, chi sao training, wooden dummy, etc. - and a constant put down of other people in wing chun, including some very prominent wing chun instructors, masters, grandmasters, etc.

And it's a particularly hypocritical and annoying form of chest beating when those doing it again-and-again never provide any tangible (ie.-visual) evidence that they themselves can actually do what they talk about.

So the irony, for me anyway, is that I basically agree with Terence's views about the need to crosstrain and constantly test what you do against people with real martial art skills. The problem is that virtually every discussion about wing chun around here seems to get poisoned to some degree-or-another by the chest beating obsession of one (and occasionally a few others join in the game as well).

[t_niehoff]

I agree that cross training is good, if that is where your interest lies. I just don't buy into the whole, if you don't do it my way you are wrong spiel.

It's not about "right" and "wrong", it's about appreciating the process of skill development.

Look at it this way,

1) if you appreciate that fighting skills only come from fighting (or, in other words, you only develop skill at X by doing X), then it follows that you need to fight/spar as the core of your training IF you want to develop fighting skill. And everything else is prep work.

2) the level of your opponents -- the people you spar with -- will determine, and can limit, your development.

3) knowledge and understanding comes from skill (not the other way round).

All of this is nothing new, it's not MY theory, this is simply the way in all sport/athletic training.

If you say, OK, I apprecicate all that, but I'm simply not that interested in developing much skill or "understanding" of WCK, then I say that's fine and dandy.

[chusauli]

Hi Dave,

I remember those old days in NYC. I was happy Allan and I had such an open relationship. I could bring my guys to his class or he to bring guys to my class. I always had a good time to chat with him - he was real knowledgeable. I am sorry I lost touch with him.

What you bring up is correct. To be unbalanced or have hair trigger response is not always appropriate. Classical martial systems also developed impeccable balanced character. In fact, aside from combat efficiency, character is valued. In WCK circles, Tsui Sheung Tien is considered modest and unassuming, another reason he is the "King of Siu Nim Tao". For WCK, centered and balanced are good goals.

People need a balance, in career and family, exercise and diet, sleep and activity, stress and emotions. These are the keys to longevity and health. To have too much concentration in one area can show deficiency and unbalance in other areas.

Be careful of those rural areas being "safe", though. A neighborhood is considered "safe" or "unsafe" due to people. People are mobile. They can always come and get you... but not trying to make you paranoid. Good to have a CCW and packing.

[dirtyrat]

Fighting skills (skills in general) doesn't always come from fighting alone.

Learning is a matter of opening your mind to possibilites.

The problem with learning, is that most people try to take the subject matter and try to make it fit with what they already know in order to "make it work". In this way, most people learning ability is severely hampered.

Take children. Before the age of say7, their learning curve is high. They are "the empty cup". Then of course they reach an age where they think they know everything and becomes brats .

Many are attracted to Asian MA because we all heard stories of masters who defeat bigger and stronger opponents and do so effortlessly.

Of course, these are largely stories. But I have met at least two CMA teachers who skills fit the stories. They were smaller but I saw them handle larger guys effortlessly. I met at least one aikido guy who could apply his stuff against an unwillingly opponent. I of course thought it was a trick and call me disrepectful but I just had to test them myself and well....

Of course these guys were very secretive about their stuff. But I did observe that they had one thing in common. They thought outside the box. They carried themselves differently from most people. Despite their secretive ways, I felt fortunate to have met them. For they showed a whole new world of possibilites is waiting to be explored.

If someone was interested in a different way, I'll say this much. You start by taking a good long look at the mirror. Learn to be honest with yourself no matter how much it hurts. This is something very difficult for a lot of people, because they are always lying to themselves in one way or another. And that always narrow your field of view.

Fighting skills is more than learning to refine the physical skills. Step back and ask yourself why you're getting whooped and wondered if there's a different way. Open & expand your mind. Having a narrow point of view will only lead to superficial skills. Figure out the rest for yourself. Saying anything more will just lead to more useless bickering.

[t_niehoff]

Fighting skills (skills in general) doesn't always come from fighting alone.

Really? Then how else can you develop them? Do you think also that you can develop surfing skills without surfing?

Learning is a matter of opening your mind to possibilites.

Learning is more than opening your mind to possibilities. But, I'm also not talking about learning some skill, I'm talking about developing it. You can learn a fighting skill, for example, by watching someone. To develop that skill is a horse of a different color.

The problem with learning, is that most people try to take the subject matter and try to make it fit with what they already know in order to "make it work". In this way, most people learning ability is severely hampered.

Take children. Before the age of say7, their learning curve is high. They are "the empty cup". Then of course they reach an age where they think they know everything and becomes brats .

Learning and developing skills are not the same thing.

But I do agree that children learn and develop skills usually much more quickly. That has nothing to do with having an "empty cup" (another silly chinese metaphor, btw). It is that they are using their natural,in-born way of learning and developing.

Many are attracted to Asian MA because we all heard stories of masters who defeat bigger and stronger opponents and do so effortlessly.

Of course, these are largely stories. But I have met at least two CMA teachers who skills fit the stories. They were smaller but I saw them handle larger guys effortlessly. I met at least one aikido guy who could apply his stuff against an unwillingly opponent. I of course thought it was a trick and call me disrepectful but I just had to test them myself and well....

Royce Gracie at 180 lbs. beat Akebono at 400 lbs, the champion sumo wrestler. You can find many examples of skilled fighters beating bigger, stronger people.

Of course these guys were very secretive about their stuff. But I did observe that they had one thing in common. They thought outside the box. They carried themselves differently from most people. Despite their secretive ways, I felt fortunate to have met them. For they showed a whole new world of possibilites is waiting to be explored.

If someone was interested in a different way, I'll say this much. You start by taking a good long look at the mirror. Learn to be honest with yourself no matter how much it hurts. This is something very difficult for a lot of people, because they are always lying to themselves in one way or another. And that always narrow your field of view.

If someone wants to develop in any athletic activity, the way to go about it is do what other good athletes do.

Fighting skills is more than learning to refine the physical skills. Step back and ask yourself why you're getting whooped and wondered if there's a different way. Open & expand your mind. Having a narrow point of view will only lead to superficial skills. Figure out the rest for yourself. Saying anything more will just lead to more useless bickering.

Good advice.l

[anerlich]

I don't want a rep.

It would seem that you have one anyway.

[dirtyrat]

I forgot the T's bio said he was an attorney; trained to argue/debate and twist things around to suit his purposes.