Ip Man Wing Chun?

[KPM]

Yes, its like too old ladys moaning about the youth of today...... "we never played that music in MY day!!"

Yes, the pair of you, heed Choppers word of wisdom

Again....if we stand by and say nothing then the message is that it IS acceptable behavior. When someone does step up consistently and call people on what SHOULD be unacceptable behavior they are accused of whining and being "old ladies" and told repeatedly to "hard the fxck up." Glenn, you are part of the problem as well. Because evidently you think it is acceptable here and speak against the people that think it shouldn't be acceptable. You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution. Too often you choose to be part of the problem. Call that whining or anything you want because you don't want to hear it. But its the truth.

[Paddington]

Well, some people who may have been driven away were happy to post here when everyone considered them experienced, knowledgeable, and perhaps skillful. Then when others became critical of what they were doing and teaching to their students, they took their ball and went home.

An example of one such person may be below. Four moves in response to a jab, the first one being crossing yourself while chasing the punch, ready to eat the second one in reality. After several people 'disrespected' what he does, I haven't seen him posting much anymore. And so what?





Not so sure about that. At least, when comes to what they actually do, it couldn't be more different.



Yeah, but it's not really similar at all. Different purpose.



Don't know what you mean. What positions does one adopt when fighting?



None. No sequences done on a wooden dummy train application, because it's just a log. Po-paai drills with live partners help train it's application.

Thanks for taking the time to respond LFJ. I see no problem voicing criticism, it is just the tone of that voicing and the use of pejoratives.

I can accept that the way that attitude to the wooden dummy is applied is different but the fact remains, the initial attitude is a shared one. I disagree in that I do see the dummy as helping train po paai from different positions and I think PB would agree with me.

I say that having reviewed many of the clips he has put out and having spent a lot of time trying to understand his student's perspectives. If he ever responds to my request to meet him, where I would of course pay for his time, I'll ask him in person!

[LFJ]

@KPM

Just drop it already, man! There's another discussion happening and you want to keep carrying on about this? You create the opposite effect from what you want by dragging it on and giving it such attention.

[LFJ]

I can accept that the way that attitude to the wooden dummy is applied is different but the fact remains, the initial attitude is a shared one.

That has no real meaning though if the main focus and most importantly the final outcome is worlds apart.

I disagree in that I do see the dummy as helping train po paai from different positions and I think PB would agree with me.

I don't train under him and can't speak for him, but for me it's not really about imagining fighting scenarios and applications, but more about developing certain attributes.

If he ever responds to my request to meet him, where I would of course pay for his time, I'll ask him in person!

I'd imagine he gets numerous messages like that and probably doesn't take them all seriously. I'd check his schedule and plan a trip to his school when he should be around. Then let him know you're looking to come through.

[KPM]

@KPM

Just drop it already, man! There's another discussion happening and you want to keep carrying on about this? You create the opposite effect from what you want by dragging it on and giving it such attention.

Because it NEEDS attention! I will drop it when you guys actually start listening to what I am saying and things change a bit. Graham went on and on for several pages with asinine comments and purely argumentative responses and you said nothing. I make four posts (two of which were responses to people disagreeing with my message) and you say I am "carrying on"? There is certainly a double standard here. Again...if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

[Paddington]

That has no real meaning though if the main focus and most importantly the final outcome is worlds apart.

I think it does have meaning and even when we move into discussing the form, it is still emphasised across lineages. There is something to what you say, mind, but I think your negative view of 'direct applications' and 'sequences' is a little overstated. Even the lessons WSL committed to tape show 'application of sequences' inasmuch as ideas of what works. For example, one 'sequence' WSL emphasised was the use of huen sau from a wrong upper gang sau position and it is a sequence which is shown on the dummy and then on a training partner, as he explains one possible way to use that practice. I don't think anyone is saying that is a definitive statement of that movement and idea.

I don't train under him and can't speak for him, but for me it's not really about imagining fighting scenarios and applications, but more about developing certain attributes.

[...]

I often practice the dummy form, numerous versions, blind folded so it matters not to me if it is a wooden man or one of flesh and blood. Also more recently I just play with the dummy rather than doing a form proper. With that in mind I feel some of these distinctions you make melt away, well, at least for me they do.

However, on the po paai it seems to me that it is commonly practiced, across WSL and Yip lineages, from four different positions which one can find oneself in; 1) po paai from kwon sau, 2) po paai from garn/gang sau 3) po paai from bong sau, and 4) po paai from bong chor sau. To my mind acknowledging that does not stand contrary to what you say and as I said, it could be a wooden man there or one of flesh and blood.

EDIT: LFJ, what positions do you think it is beneficial to practice po paai from? Are there some positions that you think are more likely than others to occur and hence justify practicing po paai from one position over another? On the po paai from bong sau, is it worth making a distinction with a dai bong or just leaving it as the 'principle' and sticking with a higher bong for po paai practice? Is the kwon sau enough of a representation for dai bong instead?

[Vajramusti]

EDIT: LFJ, what positions do you think it is beneficial to practice po paai from? Are there some positions that you think are more likely than others to occur and hence justify practicing po paai from one position over another? On the po paai from bong sau, is it worth making a distinction with a dai bong or just leaving it as the 'principle' and sticking with a higher bong for po paai practice? Is the kwon sau enough of a representation for dai bong instead?

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????? If you have an open line for popai- you just use it!!

[LFJ]

I'm with Vaj on that. I don't think about fight sequences or train to apply them. Showing how to use a hyun-sau is very different from what some people do with the form, even in "WSLVT".

For example, taking that section-ending sequence of movements from the dummy form and thinking about applying it as you've ended up on the inside, so you hyun to the outside, then trap their arm with the other hand and palm strike. That's four movements to a single punch, similar to what Phil was doing in that still above from a video where he was deliberately crossing himself.

If you go in thinking about applying sequences like that, that's when you eat the second punch. So I don't find it useful to look at any of the forms as fight sequences or thinking about fighting someone when I'm using a wooden dummy. That's what we have live training partners for, and we don't do forms on them.

[GlennR]

Again....if we stand by and say nothing then the message is that it IS acceptable behavior. When someone does step up consistently and call people on what SHOULD be unacceptable behavior they are accused of whining and being "old ladies" and told repeatedly to "hard the fxck up." Glenn, you are part of the problem as well. Because evidently you think it is acceptable here and speak against the people that think it shouldn't be acceptable. You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution. Too often you choose to be part of the problem. Call that whining or anything you want because you don't want to hear it. But its the truth.

Graham and me watching you two carry on and on and on.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I

[KPM]

Graham and me watching you two carry on and on and on.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I

And, once again, you totally ignore my point. If you aren't part of the solution....then you're part of the problem. LFJ talks about carrying on and on, and yet you couldn't resist just one more asisine jab, now could you?

LFJ wrote:
For example, taking that section-ending sequence of movements from the dummy form and thinking about applying it as you've ended up on the inside, so you hyun to the outside, then trap their arm with the other hand and palm strike. That's four movements to a single punch, similar to what Phil was doing in that still above from a video where he was deliberately crossing himself.

You are looking at it wrong, in my opinion. If you find yourself in a situation where the opponent is on top and pressing downward on your arms, then you Huen Sau to the outside to take the line and do your trap & strike. Its not a counter to a punch, its a counter to at attempted trap.

I think the dummy serves multiple purposes. Because the dummy doesn't move or "give way" much, it certainly serves as a "protractor" to help you develop proper angles, it helps develop power release, and so helps develop many attributes. But it also helps develop application indirectly. In PSWCK, every short set has a dummy version. Every short set has a direct application that is trained in a 2 man drilling format as well as in Chi Sao. Practicing the set on the dummy is no different than practicing it solo in the air. So both develop application indirectly....the dummy maybe even a bit more directly because you have something giving you resistance when practicing the techniques. I say "indirectly" because the direct way to develop application is against a live partner providing various levels of resistance. But you can certainly practice sequences of moves on the dummy that will be applied in pretty much the same manner with a partner. At least in PSWCK, and in the Yip Man WCK and TWC that I studied. Why would you train the dummy and leave out that important aspect or benefit?

[Paddington]

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????? If you have an open line for popai- you just use it!!

Hi Joy. Yes I understand that but in terms of developing the feel for when it is open then surely the movements from the dummy, can be seen in that context i.e. knowing what it feels like when the line opens up from various positions? For example, in the kwon sau to po paai, as you turn you feel the pressure lessen and that line open up in the sense of simulating that in a real context. I don't know, I tend to also use the dummy like that to stimulate the existence and absence of pressure inasmuch as lines opening up and closing.

EDIT: LFJ, I guess my above reply to Joy is also relevant to what you say. I am not talking about sequences as you suggest and the huen sau example I cite is not four movements but rather one.

[LFJ]

You are looking at it wrong, in my opinion.

I was not describing the way I look at it. I was describing the way some in "WSLVT" look at it, which I don't agree with.

Its not a counter to a punch, its a counter to at attempted trap.

The picture of Phil posted earlier is a still from a video he did to show how to use hyun-sau against a punch. It was four actions done against a single punch where he deliberately crossed himself.

Again, what I described are ways of thinking that I don't agree with. Say it's whatever scenario you conceive of. I think it's silly to argue what situation it may represent, because I don't look at it that way.

[LFJ]

@Paddington

You can't feel pressure from a piece of wood. Exchanges of pressure must be done with a live training partner. For me, the dummy is not just there as a replacement for when one doesn't have a live partner to train with. They don't move and respond like a person. So to me, that's not the reason to train with it.

[KPM]

I was not describing the way I look at it. I was describing the way some in "WSLVT" look at it, which I don't agree with.

Ah! Ok. I missed that. My apologies.



The picture of Phil posted earlier is a still from a video he did to show how to use hyun-sau against a punch. It was four actions done against a single punch where he deliberately crossed himself.

That is one of the ways TWC applies its strategy of getting to the "blind side." If it is done quickly the risk from the opponent's other hand is minimal. But it is still there.


Again, what I described are ways of thinking that I don't agree with. Say it's whatever scenario you conceive of. I think it's silly to argue what situation it may represent, because I don't look at it that way.

To each his own. I like to imagine various situations in which a given sequence of moves might be applied. Its called maximizing the "physiological potential" of any given technique. The more ways you can apply basic movements the better off you are because it simplifies your training. I think it is part of taking a "conceptual approach" to Wing Chun. That's why I think you are missing out on an important aspect of using the dummy if you aren't thinking about how something might be applied. But your mileage may vary and maybe you don't see it that way. That's Ok.

[KPM]

@Paddington

You can't feel pressure from a piece of wood. .

Of course you can! When you press, the dummy presses back because it doesn't give way or move. One can press against the dummy to simulate an opponent pressing against you, and then "spring past" to another technique just as you would with a partner. I think that's what Paddington was getting at with his example. The dummy is your one training partner that never gets tired and never complains! You can train a lot things on it outside of the choreographed dummy form. Sure a live partner is better. But the dummy is somewhere between that live partner and a simple heavy bag.