Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Syn7]

I have a question about marking the 5 animal form. Doc fai Wong offers a distance learning program which the 5 animal form is a part of. My question is, why would he teach his distance students with this marked DVD if it isn't the way it is taught in person?

Markers are simply a way of tracking lineage and also have the added bonus of exposing frauds. But their original purpose was to track and protect. Some masters would teach one version to outsiders and another to those who he will leave the lineage to after his death. Some would teach a slightly different version to ALL students(assuming he doesn't have a ton of students).

My sifu has shown me a form one day then shows me a different version the next. He says both are correct and both have their reasons. After hearing the explanations you start to see why they would do this.

[Syn7]

Sorry, I should have been more specific about the capitalism thing.

Happy to clear that up in the OFF TOPIC forum. Make the thread and we can have a wonderfully fascinating conversation about the affects of IP on our society.

I would really like to talk about an economy where everyone has access to 3d printing and access to free specs for products. this is an engineers dream man. To fab my own parts in one solid block with cavitues but no seams, hell motherfukcing yeah!!!

500 bucks? I'm all over it. In fact, I think I'll start learning the software now.

[Syn7]

here.........


Yeah, I watched a dude print a human kidney awhile ago. Never seen a PERFECT human kindey before. Not approved yet, but if all is well you can print new organs to replace damaged organs. Waiting for FDA approval. Prolly about 10 years before regular commercial availability. Getting close to human testing, 3 or 4 years it looks like.

[Syn7]

Yeah, I'll admit, that one bothered me. I hate it when I see my own spelling mistakes(often), but usually don't care about others.

Phonics with multiple meanings always annoy me in print when wrong. Their there, hear here, wait weight etc etc... My punctuation is usually pretty rough. I'm sure it hasn't gone un-noticed by all but Drake. I remember when I was in the early grades I did really well in every class except grammar. It kept me off the honor role(that one's for you HSK) one semester.

[Empty_Cup]

For those of you that got the privilege to train directly with SM Bob Green, what was it about his skill in the animal systems that you can share? What was the most impactful lesson you learned from him?

I've always heard he had a unique insight into the expression and would like to know more.

[Old Noob]

I have a question about marking the 5 animal form. Doc fai Wong offers a distance learning program which the 5 animal form is a part of. My question is, why would he teach his distance students with this marked DVD if it isn't the way it is taught in person?

The more I read about the traditional CMA culture, the more I think its a farce to tie traditional notions of loyalty, honor, etc. to it. People talk about respecting teachers and stealing material and propogating false markers. . .

But, the markers exist because the teacher, the person profiting from the dissemination of the material, is lying to the purchaser. The boards are full of stories about how their teachers and masters would take on students for profit and teach them watered down techniques; saving their "real" kung fu for their best students or students who shared a race with them or whatever. The five animals form is a good example but its not even close to being the only one. DFW is in HSK's system. He decides to make a buck in martial arts by making a book and a video. How successful will his video and book be if he advertises it saying, "hey guys, this is a watered down, marked up, crappy version of this form but, hey, buy my book/video anyway?" I don't own the book or the video and haven't even seen them but I am absolutely willing to bet that the book and video market the form as a complete and correct form. DFW had to know, as his sifu had to know as well, that people would purchase that book and would share what they learned therein with others; that's human nature. So, Frank, I hate to say it, but DFW is as responsible as anyone else that there are F'd up versions of your form out there. Even if Jake had known that credit should have been given to DFW (and I still am willing to be that he's just recounting whatever BS story he heard from GMT and EMS) and gave credit to DFW, wouldn't he be doing crappy kung fu and crediting your system, thereby denigrating your system by representing it with the inferior product?

The whole thing is just BS. CMA practitioners routinely lied to their students about the sources/authenticity of their material; not just The. The whole honor and good behaviour in society garbage is a philosophical hook to sell the MA as a broader way of life.

I'm ranting a little, but really, we're mostly adults here. We should stop playing like out lineages are the only lineages that are pure. There are no pure CMA lineages.

[Old Noob]

I know better than to seek legal advice on a forum. I was just curious generally about how cover bands are situated legally.

[bodhi warrior]

For those of you that got the privilege to train directly with SM Bob Green, what was it about his skill in the animal systems that you can share? What was the most impactful lesson you learned from him?

I've always heard he had a unique insight into the expression and would like to know more.

I would love to hear some stories about master green as well. I would love to know about his monkey style.

[Old Noob]

the only thing that is an OBVIOUS FARCE is the Shaolin Do system period. KUNGARATE.



OK the above sounds like someone who wants to keep stealing from REAL kung fu. WHY would anyone be UPSET that they learned a MARKED UP version of a traditional gung fu form? They SHOULD be embarrassed that they were exposed for learning from the book then have the nerve to TEACH it as if they were authrorized to.



what era are you from? who does this TODAY?

now, do you "OLD NOOB" know how we felt when Doc Fai Wong published that book? do you know if we were happy about it? Did we celebrate what he did?



Supposition! you really DON'T know, so don't bet the house on it ok?



SUPPOSITION. THIS IS ONLY WHAT YOU ARE THINKING. DFW'S TEACHER DIED IN 1967. SO HE HAD NOTHING TO SAY NOR FEEL ABOUT IT.



CRAPPY? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CRAPPY FOR? OH YOU MUST BE TALKING ABOUT JAKE THE SNAKES DEMO OF OUR FORM. YEAH HE REALLY MADE CRAPPY LOOK GOOD. CRAPPY LOOKED BACK AND SAW JAKE THE SNAKE DO THE CRAPPY AND CRAPPY SMILED AND SAID "****, jake sucks!"



YOU DON'T TREAUSURE ANYTHING TRADITIONAL HUH? YOU DON'T CALL THE CHINESE "*****S AND GOOKS" DO YOU?

Slow down chief. Don't try to pin racist accusations on me because I point out that people make books and videos to make money and that you're probably going to make less money if you market your stuff as a pale imitation of an original. Further, when you make a book and a video, your distributing something and should expect that it will be disseminated accordingly. These are logical assumptions, not fallacious meanderings. You're being a bit touchy.

[Old Noob]

This site sells the book:
http://plumblossom.net/Books/

Here's their marketing on the book:

Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu

•History of Shaolin Five Animals
•Cultural and philosophical background of each animal
•Stages of training the Five Animal form
•Complete Five Animal form performed by Grandmaster Wong
•Applications

(emphasis added)

So, the book is marketed as containing the "complete" form, which is a lie.

The point that I'm trying to make is not a racist one; it's that lying is rampant in CMA (I specify CMA because that's what I'm most familiar with and what little I do know of JMA seems to contain less-disputed lineage/origin claims).

You're criticizing Jake for lying when one of the luminaries of your system lied and distributed an altered form to the unwashed masses for money.

Unclutter your own house is all I'm saying.

[Old Noob]

I missed the part where it said it was the complete "book" version. Totally not a lie now. The situations are completely distinguishable.

I don't have that form and so I can't say where the people in SD got it from. I was really just making the point that CMA history is full of lineage wars, half-truths, and styles diluted by masters an sifus who, for one reason or another, didn't want to show the true kung fu but still wanted to profit from "teaching" it. SD doesn't hold a monopoly on that.

BTW, I thought you Master's version of the form was awesome. The fact that he did it in a polo shirt, slacks, and loafers, though, should suggest that your kung fu is not defined by what you wear when you practice it.

[kwaichang]

All have good poi nts , many CMA Masters did have closed door students they taught the real deal to . That can happen with any teacher. So if that occured with the 5 animal form then what is in the book is probably not what was taught to HSK ???? Is it what you were taught ? If not then those who teach it would do better to take lessons for real and not from a book. But one does what they have to, it is dependent upon intent when learning. Also Many forms have been passed down by "Books" so to learn from a book is not such a bad thing I guess. The Hua Fist and some shaolin forms and legends speak of books being used as study guides. Doctors study out of books then do surgery later right. So after learning it then apply what u know from it in practice, the form may be wrong but the app ; right. So good luck with the debate . KC

[Old Noob]

So this woman who took no students that taught this form to your lineage holder, where did she learn the form? Did she create it? If not, how do you know that the person who taught it to her didn't also teach it to someone else? How do you know that she didn't teach it with "markers" in it so that, when others from her lineage saw the form performed, they would know that it was the version that she gave out? Maybe she was her age's equivalent of DFW?

[Empty_Cup]

...

Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu

•History of Shaolin Five Animals
•Cultural and philosophical background of each animal
•Stages of training the Five Animal form
•Complete Five Animal form performed by Grandmaster Wong
•Applications

...

So, the book is marketed as containing the "complete" form, which is a lie.

...

You're criticizing Jake for lying when one of the luminaries of your system lied and distributed an altered form to the unwashed masses for money.

Unclutter your own house is all I'm saying.

I missed the part where it said it was the complete "book" version. Totally not a lie now. The situations are completely distinguishable.

...

BTW, I thought you Master's version of the form was awesome. The fact that he did it in a polo shirt, slacks, and loafers, though, should suggest that your kung fu is not defined by what you wear when you practice it.

Old Noob makes some pretty good points here. The fact remains that DFW is using a marked-up version of the form to sell to the public (while not disclosing the fact it's an altered version) which is exactly what Jake's been accused of. This is separate from the issue of referencing/crediting the source.

His last point is alluding to all the criticism SD gets from wearing gi's and belts vs. sammies and sashes.

[Syn7]

The more I read about the traditional CMA culture, the more I think its a farce to tie traditional notions of loyalty, honor, etc. to it. People talk about respecting teachers and stealing material and propogating false markers. . .

But, the markers exist because the teacher, the person profiting from the dissemination of the material, is lying to the purchaser. The boards are full of stories about how their teachers and masters would take on students for profit and teach them watered down techniques; saving their "real" kung fu for their best students or students who shared a race with them or whatever. The five animals form is a good example but its not even close to being the only one. DFW is in HSK's system. He decides to make a buck in martial arts by making a book and a video. How successful will his video and book be if he advertises it saying, "hey guys, this is a watered down, marked up, crappy version of this form but, hey, buy my book/video anyway?" I don't own the book or the video and haven't even seen them but I am absolutely willing to bet that the book and video market the form as a complete and correct form. DFW had to know, as his sifu had to know as well, that people would purchase that book and would share what they learned therein with others; that's human nature. So, Frank, I hate to say it, but DFW is as responsible as anyone else that there are F'd up versions of your form out there. Even if Jake had known that credit should have been given to DFW #and I still am willing to be that he's just recounting whatever BS story he heard from GMT and EMS# and gave credit to DFW, wouldn't he be doing crappy kung fu and crediting your system, thereby denigrating your system by representing it with the inferior product?

The whole thing is just BS. CMA practitioners routinely lied to their students about the sources/authenticity of their material; not just The. The whole honor and good behaviour in society garbage is a philosophical hook to sell the MA as a broader way of life.

I'm ranting a little, but really, we're mostly adults here. We should stop playing like out lineages are the only lineages that are pure. There are no pure CMA lineages.

I think you are missing the point of marking forms. Yes there are some guys that think they have secrets and make crappy forms in order to get paid and keep what they think is deadly to themselves and a select set of students. Avoid these people at all cost. Seriously, even if they do have an authentic lineage, their drama far exceeds the benefits. There are more than enough sifu out there that keep it real and do great work.

Now these honorable teachers aren't trying to scam or water down anything, they simply mark the forms in order to track the evolution and show lineage. Understand that lineage is like a family, two brothers have kids and you have the same family but a whole new branch. The further the branches get away from eachother the more chances of difference. These markers help sort all that out down the line. DFW marked his form because he was giving it out. That way he can tell who learned it from his branch, another branch or the book. That doesn't mean the book form sucked or was any less than the unmarked version. I don't know DFW, he may have been a liar and thief, I don't know. What I do know is that markers are not used by good teachers to deceive. They are there for clarification in the future#due to past arguments no doubt# in distinguishing lineage and their branches. It just has the nice side affect of revealing frauds and liars. They are like MA dna. Basics can remain while style changes. We need to learn basics, but the style is up to us, so it changes. ALOT. Markers help sort that clusterfukc out later. Technically all forms are "marked". Any change or unique attribute you add or change in the form is a marker. Taking note of these changes and passing them on is what markers are all about. You can define it any way you want, but really comes down to taking note of changes and similarities. These changes are very rarely fundamental changes. If they are, they better have a d@mn good reason or they are just liars and thieves. A key movement in a form that is common in all versions is also a marker. It goes both ways. It shows what is different as well as what is the same.

Like I said about my own sifu, his forms change all the time. I have never seen him do a variation and not known exactly what I was looking at. He gave me the foundation of the form and I can even recognize versions from far removed branches that are so different. Yet I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that it is the same form. Or was, rather.