Most important part of learning

[PalmStriker]

Quote: The TCMA guys can't effectively fight the way they train. Either they fight like the modern martial arts or they lose and they certainly fight like modern martial artists better when they train like modern martial artists. If under attack I can't imagine responding in a non-TCMA mode of reactionary/muscle-memory training. Go do some more what-ever-it-is-you-do.

[Syn7]

I guess that depends on your opponent. If they wanna dance with you and use WC then I suppose you can too. If they shoot in while you are thinking sticky hands, you will most likely end up on ur back.

[Kellen Bassette]

How many people here can relate to this: You train something hard and just can't get it. You back off a bit and do other stuff. A week later you try it again and oh wow, look, you can do it. So not training actually helped, yes? Or did you actually never stop training and just didn't realize that backing off was also a part of this learning process?

I have no idea why this is true, but it is. In a great many different things...yesterday my Dad was actually talking about this phenomenon occurring in his projects.

[RenDaHai]

For example, a heavy bag is a great tool, but it will only get you so far. And vice versa. Sparring is great, but it will only get you so far. You wanna hard punch and have the ability to connect, hit a bag AND spar.

Exactly. But also the best way to condition for a technique is not always the exact technique. Sometimes you want to enhance it with weights. Sometimes you want to enhance footwork with a skipping rope. Sometimes you want to enhance your waist strength by bending over backwards and touching the floor and standing up again. Doesn't look practical but when you need that flexibility you will notice it.

I don't think you should always train the way you use. I think sometimes we want to isolate things and take them to their extremes.

The important thing is we don't lose sight of our goals. IF your goal is fighting in a ring then you have to adapt your training for that goal. If your goal is transcendence then you adapt your training in a different way. Violence prevention? A different way again.

Whichever goal you have, the principles will stay the same. Be it when making a wise choice or in the split second of a technique.



Also we shouldn't be so eager to classify all things together under a simple label like 'Martial Art'. Kung Fu is its own thing. It doesn't need to change so that it can fit in nicely with the rest of the individuals limited knowledge.

[jdhowland]

Exactly. But also the best way to condition for a technique is not always the exact technique. Sometimes you want to enhance it with weights. Sometimes you want to enhance footwork with a skipping rope. Sometimes you want to enhance your waist strength by bending over backwards and touching the floor and standing up again. Doesn't look practical but when you need that flexibility you will notice it.

I don't think you should always train the way you use. I think sometimes we want to isolate things and take them to their extremes.

The important thing is we don't lose sight of our goals. IF your goal is fighting in a ring then you have to adapt your training for that goal. If your goal is transcendence then you adapt your training in a different way. Violence prevention? A different way again.

Whichever goal you have, the principles will stay the same. Be it when making a wise choice or in the split second of a technique.



Also we shouldn't be so eager to classify all things together under a simple label like 'Martial Art'. Kung Fu is its own thing. It doesn't need to change so that it can fit in nicely with the rest of the individuals limited knowledge.

I second all of this.

[LaRoux]

I would like to comment on the phrase high level !

I think this thread is more along the lines of high level of physical conditioning, not high level of skill, they are not the same, most competitions rely on high level of physical conditioning to win, not high level of skill to win, some skill, but it is not the main factor at all compared to importance of conditioning in sport competitions .

If someone has a high level of skill they do not need a high level of physical conditions to be effective, but most competitions rules will not allow efficient effective application because it wouldn't be as entertaining and would also cause many serious injuries . If you don't know how to or can't do any effective moves that only require normal physical
health , then you are more along the lines of low level skill practitioner who needs supplement conditioning for skill.

Competitions are more amount conditioning and endurance , than being an effective martial art. IMO

Nothing could be further than the truth than the above post.

[LaRoux]

Taking this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion; why study pugilism at all?

If effectiveness in natural selection is the measure of all things (and really, isn't that little too bookishly pragmatic? a little boring?) then no one should bother studying martial arts period. Just get a gun.

You train for when you don't have your weapon with you or it jams or you are out of ammo.

[LaRoux]

All MA systems have holes in it. One of my guys told me that the MMA gym that he went to (there are two UFC fighters there), they all liked to use MT clinch on him. After he got his opponent into a head lock that not only lock his opponent's head but also lock both of his opponent's arms, his opponent stopped using MT clinch on him.

As long as you have statements such as this coming from supposed high-level CMA guys, you will have most of the combatives community deriding CMA.

[LaRoux]

when training partners are not available. Equipment training and solo drills will soon be introduced into the MMA training. The difference betweem TCMA and MMA will be less and less after that.

Considering the fact that having live training partners is one of the basic underlying principles of MMA (and one of the things that makes is successful), I doubt this is going to happen.

As far as why TCMA might be "inferior" to modern training methods, thinking that equipment training and solo drills can take the place of live, resisting partners might be part of the reason.

[Kellen Bassette]

As long as you have statements such as this coming from supposed high-level CMA guys, you will have most of the combatives community deriding CMA.

What was wrong with what YKW said? I like to use the MT clinch, but if my partner is dominating me in the clinch, I stop using it.

[MightyB]

Okay then let's break it down to the facts:
Number of TCMAers who've won a full contact world title: 2 that I know of
Number of examples of TCMAers in full contact competitons where the talent pool included very skilled competitors: 2 that I know of
Number of TCMAers who've beat any full contact fighter or repute: 2 that I know of

Kathy Long
Don "the Dragon" Wilson

You could also ad Jason Yee to the above.

[wenshu]

You train for when you don't have your weapon with you or it jams or you are out of ammo.

You live in the suburbs.

[Jimbo]

How many Krav Maga guys are also top MMA fighters? Yet I doubt anyone in their right mind would call it unproven, impractical or 'dying'.

[LaRoux]

What was wrong with what YKW said? I like to use the MT clinch, but if my partner is dominating me in the clinch, I stop using it.

Supposedly, there is this CMA "headlock" technique that this guy used to completely dominate the MT clinch and control the opponent to the extent that both his arms completely tied up and essentially useless. This technique was supposedly so successful that the opponent quit using the clinch.

The way youknowwho worded his post, he made it sound as if this happened against one of the UFC fighters there.

Now maybe I'm just way smarter than the average UFC fighter, but if that was me, I would be taking that technique directly into my fights in the UFC to shut down the MT clinch. My manager would be promoting that and trying to set up fights with guys who used the clinch so I could showcase my new found skill and move up the UFC ladder.

It wouldn't be long before this "double arm immobilizing head-lock technique" was standard fare in the UFC and all other MMA venues. Of course, we can pretty much see this never happened.

Of course, like I said, maybe I'm just way smarter than all the other guys who train at that UFC gym (as well as the coaches and owners of that MMA gym) and they haven't figured out the impact introducing something like this could have on their careers.


As long as CMA practitioners don't see the problems with these kinds of statements and simply take them at face value, they will be continued to be looked down upon by other practitioners.

Put your thinking caps of for a few seconds when you read posts like that and you will see how nonsensical they are.

[Bacon]

Kathy Long
Don "the Dragon" Wilson

You could also ad Jason Yee to the above.

Kathy Long won in kickboxing but it's still a step in the right direction. I would say it's acceptable only because it would be impossible to showcase a lot of Kung fu techniques with boxing gloves on. So it's not the best example but I give a little leeway here. Still I'd be more than willing to bet she was training as a kickboxers even though her training is listed as San Soo and Aikido.

Don Wilson trained in Goju-ryu and kickboxing so that's not viable as an example.

There's not enough information on Jason Yee's training background for a determination.