Dit Da Jow...

[KungFubar]

I didnt realize I was debating something ( i dont even know what).

as a side note, OTC pharm and western medicine in general are interested foremostly in $$$$$$$$, so it the stuff works it surely would be marketed to the OTC aches and pains crowd. If not then theres a golden opportunity to make $$$$

The logic is good unless nobody has thought of marketing the stuff (not likely if its so effective)

Next logic step = its not very effective or there is some legal hurdle that cant be overcome ie its dangerous somehow or alleged to be dangerous. This doesnt stop actual pharma which actually is extremely dangerous also tobacco which is extremely dangerous but it is sold because much $$$$$$ .

[Kymus]

So is straw man. You might want to avoid that one

Specifically how was I building a straw man?

He said almost word for word, if A, then B.

I'm simply reminding him - as I see this sort of logic all the time - that that isn't logical reasoning.

[KungFubar]

Specifically how was I building a straw man?

He said almost word for word, if A, then B.

I'm simply reminding him - as I see this sort of logic all the time - that that isn't logical reasoning.

please identify a and b in my statement as you understand it

[Kymus]

I didnt realize I was debating something ( i dont even know what).

as a side note, OTC pharm and western medicine in general are interested foremostly in $$$$$$$$, so it the stuff works it surely would be marketed to the OTC aches and pains crowd. If not then theres a golden opportunity to make $$$$

The logic is good unless nobody has thought of marketing the stuff (not likely if its so effective)

Next logic step = its not very effective or there is some legal hurdle that cant be overcome ie its dangerous somehow or alleged to be dangerous. This doesnt stop actual pharma which actually is extremely dangerous also tobacco which is extremely dangerous but it is sold because much $$$$$$ .

generally, they're much more interested in taking a biochemical compound from a plant and then patenting it.

There's room for Chinese herbal medicine in sports medicine and therapeutic modalities, but it's easier to just keep with what's already been going. This opens a giant discussion about integrative medicine.

The bottom line is that just because something works, doesn't mean it will get adopted. Just because something doesn't work, doesn't mean that it will be rejected. There are a lot of politics with this; which is very unfortunate for everyone

[herb ox]

Gawd I hope Walmart never carries it Really, the last thing we want is for Chinese medicine to go corporate! Bigger does not always equate with better...

KungFubar - You bet it works. Different recipes / brands have different degrees of effectiveness, tho. Search this forums, as there are plenty of recipes and sources here. I don't know what MMA has to do with any of it... or did you mean the AMA?

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with. My Sifu made his own Jow and I was amazed at how quickly bruises dispersed and sprained ankles were cured almost overnight. After studying Sifu's methods and learning about the herbs for the last 15 years, I now brew several types myself, and also make medicinal plasters as well - and they all work really well, and the proof to me is that the folks I give it to use it up, get better, and then call me for more when they have a new injury.

How does it work? - There is a paucity of conventional research to define this question, but Dit Da Jow has been used for centuries in China and continues to be a popular item, so it must work pretty well for many people.

From a TCM perspective - let's look at a simple "imaginary" recipe to understand what is going on here -

Da Huang - rhubarb root
Ru Xiang - Frankincence
Mo Yao - Myrrh
Pu Gong Ying - Dandelion
Tao Ren - Peach pit kernel
Hong Hua - Safflower

Da Huang and Pu Gong Ying are very cold to reduce inflammation (think herbal ice)
Da Huang also moves the blood and breaks up stagnation, like what you'd see in a bruise. Pu Gong Ying prevents infection with it's strong antiseptic qualities.

Ru Xiang and Mo Yao reduce pain, invigorate the blood, and have antiseptic effects, while softening the tendons, generating flesh and promoting healing.

Tao Ren and Hong Hua work together to strongly break up stagnation while Hong Hua nourishes the blood as well.... we could go into waaay more detail (this is just the tip of the herbal iceberg) but I would encourage you to do your own homework.

So, in essence, we are creating a liniment that strongly disperses blood coagulations, reduces pain and inflammation, and promotes healing.

Best part is, you can brew it yourself and you don't need any fancy equipment or chemical compounds... I'd take homebrew over Bud Lite any day!

Peace

herb ox

[Kymus]

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with.

Myself as well, actually. 9 years ago I read people talking on this forum about their Jow recipes and I understood none of it. I mentioned to my mother in passing that I was interested in learning Chinese herbology, she brought home an ad for a career in TCM. I thought about it and realized I could find no other job more fulffilling.

Dit Da Jow is a gateway drug

[KungFubar]

Gawd I hope Walmart never carries it Really, the last thing we want is for Chinese medicine to go corporate! Bigger does not always equate with better...

KungFubar - You bet it works. Different recipes / brands have different degrees of effectiveness, tho. Search this forums, as there are plenty of recipes and sources here. I don't know what MMA has to do with any of it... or did you mean the AMA?

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with. My Sifu made his own Jow and I was amazed at how quickly bruises dispersed and sprained ankles were cured almost overnight. After studying Sifu's methods and learning about the herbs for the last 15 years, I now brew several types myself, and also make medicinal plasters as well - and they all work really well, and the proof to me is that the folks I give it to use it up, get better, and then call me for more when they have a new injury.

How does it work? - There is a paucity of conventional research to define this question, but Dit Da Jow has been used for centuries in China and continues to be a popular item, so it must work pretty well for many people.

From a TCM perspective - let's look at a simple "imaginary" recipe to understand what is going on here -

Da Huang - rhubarb root
Ru Xiang - Frankincence
Mo Yao - Myrrh
Pu Gong Ying - Dandelion
Tao Ren - Peach pit kernel
Hong Hua - Safflower

Da Huang and Pu Gong Ying are very cold to reduce inflammation (think herbal ice)
Da Huang also moves the blood and breaks up stagnation, like what you'd see in a bruise. Pu Gong Ying prevents infection with it's strong antiseptic qualities.

Ru Xiang and Mo Yao reduce pain, invigorate the blood, and have antiseptic effects, while softening the tendons, generating flesh and promoting healing.

Tao Ren and Hong Hua work together to strongly break up stagnation while Hong Hua nourishes the blood as well.... we could go into waaay more detail (this is just the tip of the herbal iceberg) but I would encourage you to do your own homework.

So, in essence, we are creating a liniment that strongly disperses blood coagulations, reduces pain and inflammation, and promotes healing.

Best part is, you can brew it yourself and you don't need any fancy equipment or chemical compounds... I'd take homebrew over Bud Lite any day!

Peace

herb ox

Very interesting and yes I meant AMA (american medical association) I was sure I typed AMA but in fact i did type MMA.

[SoCo KungFu]

Specifically how was I building a straw man?

Western medicine focuses on pathology and the treatment of symptoms.

And so does TCM. Pathology is a broad term. But in simplest form, its simply the process of analyzing patient presentation and diagnosing the illness. For the life of me I don't understand how TCM guys/gals try to say they aren't doing this, but then say they do it better because they're "holistic." You insinuated this as well in your 2nd part when you claim western med "treats the symptoms." Which is funny, because I distinctly remember in my time in health care trying to treat the cause. Problem is, patients don't listen.

There is no similar herbal medicine that I'm aware of in western medicine. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me knows if there's been clinical research done on dit da jow.

Sure there is, you just don't know the name. To use Herb Ox's 1st example. Rhubarb (Da Huang) = Anthraquinone. Or rather, the actual compound in rhubarb that is "active" is known as an anthraquinone. See part of this disconnect between TCM and mainstream medicine is the language barrier. And well, mainstream isn't going to change its language, because its scientifically standardized. You as an aspiring TCM practitioner should probably learn to understand these things from a mainstream chemical POV as well. It will make you a better practitioner in the long run.


It's more for kung fu people. Wal Mart would lose money selling it.

They'll just cut worker hours. Walmart never loses money

Furthermore, I'd advise to be careful of affirming the consequent. That's fallacious logic.



I'm not trained in chinese herbs (yet) so I'll let someone else answer this.



That's poor advice.

This is where you, or rather the person whose blog you linked, forms a straw man.

First, he seems to be the typical type of anti mainstream med type. Which is funny that he uses Wood Lock oil. This is not part of the argument, its just a funny note. Because the same active ingredients are in Icy Hot, which at least here where I live is much easier to find and a lot less expensive. Tiger balm also has the same stuff minus the methyl salicylate, which can be toxic if you have kids around that might ingest it. Of course, MS is also in mouth wash so....

But more to the point, your blog link cites a book passage that makes untrue claims regarding western medicine, in this case the RICE protocol, as a means to debase the western modality while propping up his own choice methods. Firstly,

In Western medicine, ice is universally recommended for all kind of inflammation, including that present in chronic injuries.

Few doctors use ice for much more that immediate treatment following traumatic injury. I've never personally seen a doc recommend ice for anything chronic. Its certainly never been in any patient notes I've seen. In fact, most inflammation and swelling patients present have nothing to do with trauma (usually its some other disease process like diabetes etc.) so the statement in the book is blatantly wrong. But even limiting the scope to traumatic injury, this is a false claim against western med.

In Chinese medicine, it is almost never used and is considered a culprit in joint injuries that don’t heal properly, because cold causes contraction of the muscles and tends to freeze and congeal the fluids that cause swelling, ultimately preventing their complete re-absorption.

First off, claiming that it impedes healing is a statement that needs to be substantiated. And to the best of my searching, this is not validated in any proper clinical study. It seems to be just more "conventional" TCM wisdom that gets propagated without much questioning. Now if he actually presented the study evidence that suggests that trials researching the efficacy of cryotherapy are not substantiated based on limited to no blinding in the research design, etc. THAT would be a proper argument. But I'm doubting many here have bothered to look that deep. However, as I say this, following a number of those criticisms (which were around 2004) more studies have come out suggesting ice does have a positive reduction is swelling and pain, even more when paired with electrical pulse therapies. Why? Not sure, I haven't read that much more into it frankly. On the second point, it is NOT the case that cold prevents reabsorption off hand. In fact, a number of compounds are more readily absorbed in cold that heat.

Compression limits swelling. Usually an elastic bandage is wrapped around the injured area to compress the tissues, thereby limiting blood flow into the area. This is contrary to Chinese medicine, where such constriction is felt to cause blood to stagnate and congeal above and below the injury. This slow re-absorption into the blood vessels.

I don't know about you, but usually I try to take my medical advice from someone that actually has a grasp on basic anatomy and physiology. Fluid reabsorption isn't so simple. The "fluid" portion of the fluid in the interstitial space is reabsorbed largly by the post-capillary venules. However, all the large molecules suspended in that fluid (ie, all the crap, damaged/destroyed cells, etc. that the fluid was there to remove to begin with) is reabsorbed via the lymphatic system. Furthermore, there's more recent studies into using the lymphatic system for drug admin (as opposed to the typical IV admin) that shows that even in conditions of swelling, lymphatic drug admin is a viable mechanism. This suggests that swelling (ie increased hydrostatic pressure, the same you are saying occurs via restriction band) would not impede lymphatic operation.

Next he goes into contrast bath protocol. And claims it is a viable means of treating swelling. Which is funny, because I distinctly remember reading publicized comparisons that state that contrast bathing is no better than simple RICE style cryotherapy. I think I posted it in another topic in this subforum, if you care to look for it.

The rest of this guy/gal's post goes into a statement of personal bias and personal account. Oh, turns out he wasn't treating his/her swelling at all, because he/she had a fracture...Duh moment. I did enjoy this little tid bit at the end though:

You will notice that within this update, there is some educational material.

Yes, it was indeed educational. It showed a person shackled by their personal bias. It showed that 1) you should never self diagnose. 2) One should be discerning in your sources of info regarding A&P and medical advice. And blogs usually aren't it. 3) TCM practitioners aren't the best sources of info regarding what is or isn't done in mainstream med practice 4) Don't be a dummy. Had this person swallowed their bias and went to get a freaking xray following the incident (rather than waiting 2 whole weeks before acknowledging the obvious) a lot of pain could have been avoided (like possibly avoiding surgery).

[SoCo KungFu]

Actually Kungfubar was pretty correct. The way patents work; even a natural compound can be patented under certain stipulations. If there is a certain protocol in extracting that compound, that can also be patented. And any derivatives of said compound can be patented. And that's the big part there. Natural compounds aren't the most effective. They serve as a starting point, but there's a lot that chemists can do to slightly play with certain parts of the structure to make it more effective (like say, making it more readily absorbed, etc.).

I see a lot of people trying to play the line that big pharm is trying to suppress alt med remedies. But the fact is, if its effective they WILL be trying their best to get control of it and push it on the market for profit. Especially if nature has done most of the chemistry already.

And that's why I'm here hijacking this thread. Because it aggravates the piss out of me when I see some of the practices the alt med industry throws out and no one bats an eye. Simple truth is, if the stuff is scientifically validated, then it will get acknowledged. I see TCM guys all the time complaining how, "they're not getting respect." Well guess what? Go into research and produce a viable study on it then if its so important to you. Its not up to the rest of the world to do your work for you.

Also, the alt med industry makes by pretty nicely in that they one, get to demonize mainstream med while preying on the more vulnerable patient base (ie the ones that really can't be fixed). And while they complain that their stuff like herbal treatments (which I do like btw) don't get proper attention, they get to fly under the radar of FDA oversight. Because "supplements" aren't scrutinized like "medicines." If TCM remedies had the same classification as mainstream pharm, you'd not be able to use a great majority of what you're pushing, save the stuff from actual food items.

And the last thing I'll rant on, because I could really go on and on... If TCM is so great, it should stand on its own accord. Practitioners should not be trying to push their product by debasing what they see as the "enemy." (mainstream med). It wreaks of just as much greed driven corporate BS that these same people blame the pharm industry and mainstream med to be guilty of. The TCM mode of PR thus far has been the medical equivalent of the used car salesman. "You want a car that rides at the cheapest prices in town? Don't buy from those guys down the street!" And that's just simply unethical.

Now there's a lot to be liked with TCM. As much as I probably piss people off here on this forum with my criticism, I actually do like things about it. Even to the point of considering going into it as a career (and I still do from time to time, but I like other areas in science more). But its got a number of issues that need to be addressed if its going to be truly taken seriously. First, this BS political cronyism that pervades the alt med industry needs to be eliminated, like yesterday. Now there are certainly issues with the pharm industry and mainstream doctors. Trust me, I've seen them first hand and called out a number of them for it when I was a medic (I was a flight medic in the military, my scope of practice in the field was roughly equivalent to an RN in the civilian world minus pushing ACLS drugs, well legally pushing them anyways. We still did, physicians don't regularly fly medevac and only 2 nurses can't handle every code when there might be 120 patients). Possibly cost myself a potentially locked in med school slot too when I criticized medical ethics of a number of docs to, who was at the time, the president of one med school's admissions board. Of course, his staff later proved me right, but that's another matter. But that doesn't excuse TCM from being just as crony (Tu quoque aside), even worse when its trying to wave that flag left and right against the mainstream med industry to boost their own client base. Hypocritical no?

Second, it needs to modernize. I know people like using the meridian system ect. But scientific standards won't be changing. If TCM practitioners want to be in the same league as a medical doc, they're going to have to suck it up and learn modern A&P. They're going to have to learn how to properly describe and demonstrate they're practice with a modern map of the body and modern knowledge of chemical properties. If they don't want to do that, then don't complain about being labelled "folk" medicine.

And I think the standards need to be higher. You want to go to med school you have to take MCAT and do well, you have to have an outstanding GPA and you have to have a 4 year degree of some sort. Just using one example that I know of:
Florida College of Integrative Medicine- Requirements listed are; only 60 credit hours (30 of which are gen ed) and minimum GPA of a whopping 2.0. Seriously, that's lower than the entrance standards for a nursing program at a tech school, and nurses aren't even diagnosing patients or making medicine by hand no less. And no entrance exam?

TCM schools should require at least a 3.5 on average and applicants should take MCAT. Maybe not as high a score required, but some standard needs to be in place to ensure people have a basic understanding of science as applied to the human body. I'd rather say you should have a 4 year degree with some mandatory courses in mainstream A&P and biochem, but that'd be tacking on possibly more school work to get in and I know that won't happen.

[Kymus]

Maybe I'm just a sensitive dude and perhaps the text medium doesn't help (that, and there's something in the water around here that makes even kinda shor), but either way I appreciate the thoughtful reply that was devoid of unneeded attitude.

To reply to what you said:

And so does TCM. Pathology is a broad term. But in simplest form, its simply the process of analyzing patient presentation and diagnosing the illness. For the life of me I don't understand how TCM guys/gals try to say they aren't doing this, but then say they do it better because they're "holistic." You insinuated this as well in your 2nd part when you claim western med "treats the symptoms." Which is funny, because I distinctly remember in my time in health care trying to treat the cause. Problem is, patients don't listen.

The treatment differs greatly, does it not? TCM doesn't use the same method for each pathology, whereas it is my understanding that Western medicine does (for good or bad). I could take a large quote from The Web that Has No Weaver which illustrates a much better example than what I can conjure, but that would make this post even bigger.. As is, I'm not good at keeping topics like this short.

To paraphrase Web, a range of symptoms are taken in to account, as well as feedback from TCM's particular method of diagnosis. Two people that have a runny nose, fever, and a cough, will not be treated the same.

Anyway, this is really contrary to the point of the topic and I know you were just making a kind side note, so I won't try to delve deeper on this.

Sure there is, you just don't know the name. To use Herb Ox's 1st example. Rhubarb (Da Huang) = Anthraquinone. Or rather, the actual compound in rhubarb that is "active" is known as an anthraquinone.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that there is an OTC medication that has the same effect that dit da jow has?

See part of this disconnect between TCM and mainstream medicine is the language barrier. And well, mainstream isn't going to change its language, because its scientifically standardized.

I find it unfortunate that that's not the only disconnect.

You as an aspiring TCM practitioner should probably learn to understand these things from a mainstream chemical POV as well. It will make you a better practitioner in the long run.

I take a lot of inspiration from the likes of Chris Kresser (L.Ac), Chris Masterjohn (Ph.D.), and Stephen Guyenet (Ph.D.); they essentially bridge the "holistic" with the "conventional" by staying strictly science-based. That, and, a few life experiences have shown me how much I could benefit my patients with a good western background (I plan on getting my Associates in A&P and I'll be taking at least one course in pharmacology, since a pharmacist friend showed me how that can help as well). Anyway, thanks for the genuine advice.

First, he seems to be the typical type of anti mainstream med type. Which is funny that he uses Wood Lock oil. This is not part of the argument, its just a funny note. Because the same active ingredients are in Icy Hot, which at least here where I live is much easier to find and a lot less expensive. Tiger balm also has the same stuff minus the methyl salicylate, which can be toxic if you have kids around that might ingest it. Of course, MS is also in mouth wash so....

This will get your eyes rolling: that's my article

Anti-mainstream med type? Partly true. I've seen enough evidence in (in medical journals, mind you) to make me wary of Western medicine outside of emergency medicine. As I get a better understanding of medcine in general, I'll take a broader view at things. But in general, it bothers me greatly when I see things like statins pushed for heart disease when they block CoQ10 and increase the risk of heart disease (and don't get me started on the cholesterol hypothesis... or the make-believe link between saturated fat and heart disease). Different topic for a different day, if you'd like to have a friendly discussion on it.

In regards to wood lock, I always keep wood lock, dit dia jow, and tiger balm stocked in my medicine cabinet of woo . That, and, I want to spend more time studying... I think the term is "dosage-response"?

The book cited, in that particular chapter was talking about RICE as a treatment for something like a sprain. Although I see that the author did mention chronic injury (thankfully, I've never had to deal with that), and your statement seems to address more its usage as a whole. I appreciate your comments, regardless.

As I had thought I had a sprain, I was looking specifically at the treatment for that. Do you feel that the author is wrong that blood flow to the affected area should not be impeded?

First off, claiming that it impedes healing is a statement that needs to be substantiated.

Agreed

It seems to be just more "conventional" TCM wisdom that gets propagated without much questioning

It's certainly possible, and I agree that that is a problem

I don't know about you, but usually I try to take my medical advice from someone that actually has a grasp on basic anatomy and physiology.

An old acupuncturist of mine demonstrated a very good knowledge of A&P when she was treating me for an inflamed hamstring tendon. This is one of the things mentioned above as to why I plan on getting a very solid foundation in it. So yes, I would agree. The author's bio says he studied herbs in China (under direct supervision), but that doesn't mean he studied A&P. He doesn't seem to be L.Ac. (and if he were, he would have studied A&P), so it is possible that he doesn't have a firm grasp on it.

I'm studying A&P right now for my massage license, actually . I learned it originally when I got certified, then I spent about 6 years doing nutrition, and now I want to make more money and the laws have since changed, so I'm studying for the NCTMB exam. It bugs me to no end that I have to learn stuff like the integumentary system
which I'll most likely never use knowledge of, but that's life.

The rest of this guy/gal's post goes into a statement of personal bias

where?

Oh, turns out he wasn't treating his/her swelling at all, because he/she had a fracture...Duh moment.

you're misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to self-treat a fracture. I thought I had a sprain since after the accident I had full rang of motion and only slight pain (I've also never had a fracture or bone break at any time in my life until this point). 2 weeks after the accident, I had almost full range of motion, and only slight pain with certain movement and some lifting. To be clear - as everyone seems to misunderstand things I say since I don't write like a lawyer - I'm simply stating here what I was thinking at that moment. That is all.

It showed that 1) you should never self diagnose.

True. But I had a 60+hr work week, no general physician, and a job that was absolutely medieval when it came to call-outs and such (yes, even with a doctor's note..).

2) One should be discerning in your sources of info regarding A&P and medical advice. And blogs usually aren't it.

The source was a book: A Tooth From the Tiger's Mouth, which is about the treatment of sports injurties with Chinese herbal medicine.

TCM practitioners aren't the best sources of info regarding what is or isn't done in mainstream med practice

No disagreement.

4) Don't be a dummy.

I was really hoping I could find a clip of Mr. T saying this, but I couldn't

Had this person swallowed their bias and went to get a freaking xray following the incident (rather than waiting 2 whole weeks before acknowledging the obvious) a lot of pain could have been avoided (like possibly avoiding surgery).

Really, it had a lot less to do with bias and more the fact that I had no real access and there's the work nazis.. I only was able to see a doctor after they told me they wanted a Dr.'s note (since I had some trouble with lifting).

Though with the scaphoid, you're right, surgery could possibly have been prevented assuming that it wasn't displaced when I fell or in the days after that.

Anyway, as I said, I appreciate your cordial response and desire to inform and educate . Generally discussions like this breed shouting, ad-hom attacks, and conspiracy theories... Like a Chinese persona and a Japanese person trying to get along....

[Kymus]

SoCo, I actually agree with a lot of what you said

I doub't we'll see eye to eye on everything (our backgrounds give us our own personal bias), but I think I agree with ~90% of what you said.

As I had mentioned in another post, there is a lot of clearning up that needs to be done on both sides.

I think both sides need to focus more on the science, to keep things really simple (I really don't feel like typing another long post... I'm sure you understand after your rant ).

What gets in the way of that is likely:

• Money
• Personal bias

That's my personal guess, as an amateur.

This is the school I plan on attending for acupuncture/tcm. I dunno about anymore, but when I found it ~6 years ago it was listed as - I believe - #5 or #6 in the country. I'm curious on your opinion about what you feel their program may be lacking?

I do agree though that more time needs to be spent on medical science.

I have some serious gipes with the design of most acupuncture studies today, and I plan on talking to a few people who know much more than me on the matter to see if this is really a design flaw or if I'm not understanding something. Either way, I plan on (trying) to emulate the change I'd like to see...

Keyword: try

[KungFubar]

are meridians actual observable anatomical structures or just hocus pocus, does it approach the realm of the supernatural?

[SoCo KungFu]

The treatment differs greatly, does it not? TCM doesn't use the same method for each pathology, whereas it is my understanding that Western medicine does (for good or bad). I could take a large quote from The Web that Has No Weaver which illustrates a much better example than what I can conjure, but that would make this post even bigger.. As is, I'm not good at keeping topics like this short.

What page? I have this book but its been a while since I've read it

To paraphrase Web, a range of symptoms are taken in to account, as well as feedback from TCM's particular method of diagnosis. Two people that have a runny nose, fever, and a cough, will not be treated the same.

Depends. Are the causes different? That's the issue. So no, in that sense, TCM is no different than mainstream. You look at symptoms as well as a number of other diagnostic measures. In TCM this would be things like tongue coloration. In western med it'd be a mouth swab or whatever to test for a pathogen. if the cause is the same, then yeah the Tx will likely be same or similar (contingent upon any other factors that might come up with that individual and the condition). But isn't then that the definition of holistic? Now if your example is run of the mill cold, then no there's not much western med will do outside of treat the symptoms because that's all anyone can do. This goes for TCM too, until the day comes someone can prove that some herbal concoction has antiviral properties.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that there is an OTC medication that has the same effect that dit da jow has?

Are there topical meds with similar properties such as anti inflammatory, pain managing and anticoagulating? Yep sure are. OTC? Unfortunately no. Of course, this goes back to my point on classification. This is where employing a "supplement" is a benefit that TCM enjoys. If these compounds were "medications" we'd all be ass out in our jow without a "prescription." Of course, the other side is, look how many jow formulas/premades on the market are suspect. So it goes both ways.

I find it unfortunate that that's not the only disconnect.

Me too.

This will get your eyes rolling: that's my article

So then a lot of the confusion in my post then was based on the me not knowing that was yours. I thought you were quoting a blog that you followed and in that blog the author was quoting a book. I thought you were a 3rd hand source basically of the text from that book. If that clears up confusion.



when I see things like statins pushed for heart disease when they block CoQ10 and increase the risk of heart disease (and don't get me started on the cholesterol hypothesis...

Here's a secret. There's a lot of mainstream docs that abstain from statins too. The problem is, medical doctors are not researchers. Much like TCM providers, they're at the mercy of what the research fields present in terms of evidence. And for a good while (until the flaws in the meta studies were found) the evidence pointed to cholesterol and was supported at the time at least by the statin studies.

In regards to wood lock, I always keep wood lock, dit dia jow, and tiger balm stocked in my medicine cabinet of woo . That, and, I want to spend more time studying... I think the term is "dosage-response"?

I like my tiger balm. If for nothing else than a little of the procedes get donated to save some tigers. The active ingredients are largely the same as woodlock, not certain on absorption rate. Gets massaged in anyways. And on the matter, technically massage is also contraindicated on traumatic injuries as it can further rupture the capillaries increasing swelling. So they say at least. No Tx is perfect yeah?

Do you feel that the author is wrong that blood flow to the affected area should not be impeded?

Not necessarily in that blood flow is impeded. Just not convinced it makes much difference in the long run really. And it certainly doesn't appear to effect the lymphatic system that also plays a large role. Here's the thing, increased hydrostatic pressure in the blood vessel (which is basically systolic BP) does force fluids out of the vasculature. This is the case with people suffering chronic high BP and all that edema they have. But its also possible that increased hydrostatic pressure in the interstitial space forces fluids more readily into the lymph capillaries. We're talking a healthy person, obviously this is out the window in chronic conditions. But that's also a matter of other problems like massive diminished venous return (as opposed to simply a localized restriction bandage on a healthy person). And really, the problem is in the studies. Like I said, his understanding of anatomy is flawed. The better argument that I provided was that the studies themselves are flawed. No one is really looking actively at this stuff because its sort of a small time issue really in the grand scheme of things. So its all meta studies and that means sifting through whatever reports and crap you can find on the topic which means not much in way of controls, ample pub bias, etc.


where?

I misunderstood your restrictions against going in and getting a work up on the wrist as being biased as in your blog you mentioned not having much use in western med except emergencies, as opposed to as you put it here with "work nazis." That was on me.

[SoCo KungFu]

(our backgrounds give us our own personal bias)

I no longer work in healthcare and my certs have since expired. I've moved on to other things. So any bias I have is from the perspective of someone that finished a degree in biology, worked in cancer research for a bit and is in grad school following other interests. My only gripe is with faulty assertions and unsupported claims.

I have NO problem in tentatively accepting the validity of something such as massage, acupuncture or jow (which would be weird considering how much jow I have sitting in my closet). And that heck, physical touch in mammalian development has epigenetic implications that bring effects over the course of a lifetime. But I acknowledge there's a big difference between my personal acceptance and actual, legitimate verification.

This is the school I plan on attending for acupuncture/tcm. I dunno about anymore, but when I found it ~6 years ago it was listed as - I believe - #5 or #6 in the country. I'm curious on your opinion about what you feel their program may be lacking?

Its hard to say honestly. They may be really good but the website kind of sucks to be blunt. They list 9 hours of required "biosciences." Which is a weird word to me, biology is a hard science. But anyways, I cant see a listing on what these actually are and the link only brings up a page with a credit card payment form. I can tell you that you can take them at the college...for an additional fee. Personally, I think any class required for a degree, should be included in the calculated tuition. Not extra. Without knowing what they are demanding, I can't say whether or not its possible you can fill these out in your 60 hour prereq. But just know, that most science courses in a traditional univ are 4 hours each. There may be a couple non majors courses you can take at 3 hours but there's not many. You will probably have to end up taking more than the required simply based on how the courses lot out hours, which also means you'll be paying more for those classes though (extra hour per class and lab fee). You worked in nutrition right? I'm assuming you have an associates at least. Did your coursework include this?

I also have a big issue with any medical program that does not cover evolution as it pertains to medical science. You're working with administered substances, whether want to call them medicine, supplements, whatever. You should at least have some basis in the curriculum in immunology, as well as how evolution has shaped the development of various pathogens (and hence, why your herbal remedies will actually work). Whether you call it "excessive yin" or whatever, or acknowledge it as an infectious agent, it makes no difference. You WILL be working with this if you are in healthcare. They may offer this in the coursework, but its not explicit.

Course descriptions seem generic and I'm not sure what everything would entail, this isn't my field so you'd have to defer to Dale Dugas, Herb Ox or one of the others. My main concern in some of these is that, there is a disproportionately small number of hours given to research methodology in the curriculum. That's disappointing. Frankly, understanding research is one of the most important skills a medical professional can learn. Unfortunately, its not often taken as seriously as it should be. This is probably even more an issue in TCM, I mean they've only been doing a lot of the same stuff how many centuries? If you don't understand research design, how will you appropriately judge information either for or against the efficacy of some treatment you may be performing? This is an every day affair in the life of a physician. Not sure how much they're trying to evolve TCM though, not my area. But don't seem like much. And when they say that the anatomy and physiology courses are to paraphrase, what you need to know in order to practice OM; well that's really vague. And frankly, they've been doing TCM for how many centuries now with superficial anatomy and no concept of modern physiology. I think those courses should probably be admissions reqs from a traditional institution and then have coursework tailoring that to TCM in the acupuncture school. I just read too many of many of these forums and such where the average TCM practitioner is making obvious mistakes in their assertions, largely do to a poor understanding of conventional, "mainstream" understanding.

On another note:
I'm also concerned with the costs of attendance vs the accessibility of non loan-based financial aid. I'm assuming since you have interest in pharmacology that you will be going the full 6 years, 4 years OM and 2 years herbology? That $75k ish tuition, after loan interest etc, will cost you upwards of $85-90k depending on how you plan your loan repayments. I don't know what the average income is for this field, but if you cover tuition through loans then you're going to be hitting around a $715 loan payment each month on top of whatever your normal bills will be once you're out and working (estimated $75k tuition for full 6 years + interest at 6.8%, payed over the standard 10 year repayment plan).

They do seem to have a fairly high graduation rate (around 83%). I'm not sure what the average is for that nationally. 89% of graduates claim to "currently practice acupuncture." Now how that relates to job placement is not explicit. The question is, how many are financially successful?

They are an ACAOM accredited college which is good, obviously. One thing about these types of schools is that they can lose accreditation in a heart beat. That FL school I mentioned has their accreditation in a probationary status at the moment.

Others here would be better judges than I.

[Kymus]

Thanks for the feedback, SoCo

Yeah, the tuition is crazy. It doesn't help that the school is in Manhattan. They just started a doctorate program as - I believe - the material has just been finalized and they are one of the schools that will be piloting it. So, my intention is to take the Ph.D. program as well as the herbs, yes.

Supposedly acupuncture pays well as a career; especially after the 5 year mark. But, that's just statistics or whatever. I don't have any friends that practice. I plan on saving and investing to try to offset the expenses at least a little bit. It's something.