The passing of another American Hero

[Lucas]

continued lie by historians

Gentlemans History will never change.

[Mr Punch]

They surrendered 6 days after Nagasaki was bombed! The reason we waited 3 days between bombings was to give them time to surrender OR begin negotiations. They refused, despite being told by their own experts in Hiroshima that we had a new weapon they did not completely understand and that could easily ravage EVERY city in Japan. It was after we did it again, and made it clear we were not going to stop that they opened negotiations and announced their surrender 6 days after the 2nd A-bomb was dropped.

You are obviously unaware that the Japanese offered themselves up under the same surrender terms to the US that they eventually were held to BEFORE the Hiroshima bombing. And you accused me of ignorance. This is old news. The US literally ignored it and prevented the story getting out, so that they could continue with their scientific experiment.

Again, you refuse to believe that your own govt at the time could stoop as low as experimenting on a foreign population. Because you're allowed to by your country's rewriting of history. Sound familiar?

[1bad65]

You are obviously a wingnut, and an ignorant one at that. The terms were NOT the same, the major issue was whether Hirohito could be tried as a war criminal. Once we agreed he would not be tried, the Japanese gov't agreed to surrender. Many people feel (myself included) he should have faced a war crimes tribunal.

Get your facts right before you spout your conspiracy theory drivel.

[Mr Punch]

You are obviously a wingnut, and an ignorant one at that. The terms were NOT the same, the major issue was whether Hirohito could be tried as a war criminal. Once we agreed he would not be tried, the Japanese gov't agreed to surrender. Many people feel (myself included) he should have faced a war crimes tribunal.

Get your facts right before you spout your conspiracy theory drivel.

You are further showing your irrationality by ignoring any specific points in my posts and resorting to insults again. And failing to follow a logical argument. I think I'll make this my last post on this thread. BTW, FWIW I think Hirohito was a war criminal too.

But the terms were the same. We offered them unconditional surrender; they said no. They offered us conditional terms. Truman said no (against the better judgment of Churchill and many of his own generals). We dropped the bombs. We offered them conditional surrender. These were the same conditions that we’d previously refused. Therefore the terms were the same. What is your breakdown?

I assume btw, that you are also calling the following people wingnuts, ignorant and conspiracy theorists.

Under the present circumstances I have concluded that our only alternative is to accept the Potsdam Proclamation and terminate the war.

Please note the time.

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." (Bernstein, ed., The Atomic Bomb, pg. 52-56).

It is possible, in the light of the final surrender, that a clearer and earlier exposition of American willingness to retain the Emperor would have produced an earlier ending to the war… Only on the question of the Emperor did Stimson take, in 1945, a conciliatory view; only on this question did he later believe that history might find that the United States, by its delay in stating its position, had prolonged the war…In the State Department there developed a tendency to think of the bomb as a diplomatic weapon. Outraged by constant evidence of Russian perfidy, some of the men in charge of foreign policy were eager to carry the bomb for a while as their ace-in-the-hole... American statesmen were eager for their country to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip…

Also among your list of wingnuts, ignorant people and conspiracy theorists are: Supreme Allied Commander General Eisenhower, the well-known “hawk,” and Commander of the famous Pacific 21st Fleet General Curtis LeMay, and Truman’s friend and Chief of Staff, five star Admiral William D. Leahy among many many others. On the pro side, you have Truman and Stimson, and General George C. Marshall who stated it had been necessary but wanted the bomb dropped on a purely military target, and if that failed then to warn a civilian population before using it on a city.

And then there are the letters from Stimson, the generals, Churchill, Truman etc in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum that categorically state that the reasons the bombs were to be dropped were:

1) To justify the millions of dollars research budget to the cash-starved American people
2) To test the effects of a plutonium bomb and a uranium one specifically on a built-up civilian area
3) To warn off the Russians

Did I mention them?

But wait, think I’ll take your opinion over all those wingnuts.
My sides are aching.

[1bad65]

You still are a wingnut. It is a FACT the Japanese would not surrender until they were promised Hirohito could stay in power and not be tried for war crimes. PERIOD.

You mention these 3 things below as CAUSES for us dropping the A-bombs:

1) To justify the millions of dollars research budget to the cash-starved American people
2) To test the effects of a plutonium bomb and a uranium one specifically on a built-up civilian area
3) To warn off the Russians

I honestly believe they were EFFECTS of it, yes. And I agree some people knew the 3 things would indeed be EFFECTS. But the bottom line was that the need to end the war without the US losing millions more lives was the CAUSE for dropping them.

Do you see my position now?

[1bad65]

Keep in mind this Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum you say came up with these 'reasons' is in the same country that you admit REFUSES to accept and admit that their own country committed horrible atrocities on a massive scale.

I'll believe a man like Harry Truman over any Japanese museum any day of the week. It's pathetic you won't.

[Mr Punch]

Keep in mind this Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum you say came up with these 'reasons' is in the same country that you admit REFUSES to accept and admit that their own country committed horrible atrocities on a massive scale.

They are not effects, they were the reasons. The museum did not come up with these reasons, they are written in Stimson's own hand, Truman's own hand, Churchill's own hand, etc etc. These are first hand evidence letters. As I said in about three posts before they are not even translated into Japanese, they are just on display: most of the Japanese believe the official American line.

I am believing Eisenhower, Nimitz, Leahy, Churchill, LeMay, all of them experienced Generals, over Truman, a self-confessed inexperienced President thrust suddenly into a job he wasn't prepared for with a well-documented hatred of the Japanese people, yes. (Though even he said he wanted the targets to be military: it was the scientific advisors and Stimson who chose the civilian options).

It's pathetic how you're doing the same as the Japanese and hiding from the reality of what happened.

[1bad65]

They are not effects, they were the reasons.

We will never agree there.

The museum did not come up with these reasons, they are written in Stimson's own hand, Truman's own hand, Churchill's own hand, etc etc. These are first hand evidence letters. As I said in about three posts before they are not even translated into Japanese, they are just on display: most of the Japanese believe the official American line.

Most of the Japanese do not know the war crimes their own country committed either. Do you also believe all the 'authentic' letters that show FDR knew about Pearl Harbor before it happened?

I am believing Eisenhower, Nimitz, Leahy, Churchill, LeMay, all of them experienced Generals, over Truman, a self-confessed inexperienced President thrust suddenly into a job he wasn't prepared for with a well-documented hatred of the Japanese people, yes. (Though even he said he wanted the targets to be military: it was the scientific advisors and Stimson who chose the civilian options).

Truman had a long-standing hatred of the Japanese?!?! Whatever. Civilian options? Your a moron. You saw how Hiroshima had a legit military value as well as the ONLY city without a POW population.

Are you Oliver Stone or Alex Jones by chance? And you teach our kids?!?! No wonder our educational system is a friggin joke.

[Mr Punch]

We will never agree there.

Guess not. You have your unshakable opinion. I saw the letters written by the people making the decision.

Most of the Japanese do not know the war crimes their own country committed either.

No disagreement there. Your point being?

Do you also believe all the 'authentic' letters that show FDR knew about Pearl Harbor before it happened?

Don't know anything about that. But if you're suggesting that somebody fabricated all of those letters in that museum you're deranged.

Truman had a long-standing hatred of the Japanese?!?! Whatever.

Dude, it's no secret, it's never been denied. He stated many times that they were 'savages', 'barbarians' etc. There are countless quotes, from his own writings and interviews. Just look it up on google: I'm not going to spoonfeed you with all the quotes. Despite that he wanted to hit military options first.

Civilian options? Your a moron. You saw how Hiroshima had a legit military value as well as the ONLY city without a POW population.

Interesting. Again, you're calling me a moron when all of the ****ing generals had come up with other more military options... what, you with your intimate knowledge of wartime Japanese geography have deemed that there weren't any more purely military options than a city of up to 350,000 people? I bow down to your greater knowledge

And you teach our kids?!?! No wonder our educational system is a friggin joke.

Once again you show your lack of reading understanding. I teach junior high school in Japan.

Niceties over, as are my answers: you're a ****ing idiot. End of chat.

[Drake]

Why does this always break down to name-calling? Truman did have an issue with the Japanese as a race, that's a certainty. Regardless of the motivations for the dropping of the a-bomb, it did save lives in the end. I think it also made the world a bit more hesitant to use them later on as well.

[Mr Punch]

Why does this always break down to name-calling?

He started it!

Truman did have an issue with the Japanese as a race, that's a certainty

Which was quite justified in light of their atrocities. However, I come close to agreeing with I think it was Leahy's assessment that dropping the bomb sank the US to the level of barbarians also. Of course I don't think that, because I don't agree with any blanket statements about a race, among other things.

Regardless of the motivations for the dropping of the a-bomb, it did save lives in the end. I think it also made the world a bit more hesitant to use them later on as well.

Yep, quite right.

[1bad65]

No disagreement there. Your point being?Don't know anything about that. But if you're suggesting that somebody fabricated all of those letters in that museum you're deranged.

If they are so legit then it would be pretty obvious the bombings were done for the wrong reasons then. Interesting this is the first I've heard of them.

Once again you show your lack of reading understanding. I teach junior high school in Japan.

There's a real shock.

[1bad65]

Which was quite justified in light of their atrocities. However, I come close to agreeing with I think it was Leahy's assessment that dropping the bomb sank the US to the level of barbarians also. Of course I don't think that, because I don't agree with any blanket statements about a race, among other things.

Did Truman make these anti-Japanese statements before or after Pearl Harbor? Before or after the Japanese invaded China? You said they were 'long-standing'.

[BM2]

Well...ummmm....Doesn't appear as if KC and Punch watched The History Channel's story on how many in the military didn't want to surrender even after the second bomb. There was several that were planning a coup.
Oh, 1Bad65, no use in presenting your points to them. They most likely believe in a 9/11 cover up too Hey, I'm being serious.

[1bad65]

Well...ummmm....Doesn't appear as if KC and Punch watched The History Channel's story on how many in the military didn't want to surrender even after the second bomb. There was several that were planning a coup.
Oh, 1Bad65, no use in presenting your points to them. They most likely believe in a 9/11 cover up too Hey, I'm being serious.

Totally correct. On August 14th there was an attempted coup in order to prevent the surrender. He is a wingnut for sure. It's why I asked if he believed the FDR-Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory. I don't think he answered that.

Honestly, the guy is a Japanophile who loves it over there so much that he actually hates what his own country did to those 'nice people'.