Martial Arts Accreditation and Governing Bodies

[Minghequan]

What are your thoughts on the need (or not) for Martial Arts Accreditation for martial arts instructors and the need for Governing Bodies?

I belong to the Martial Arts Industry Association MAIA (http://www.maia.com.au/) and the International Martial Arts Alliance IMA (http://www.martialartalliance.com/). These organisations both offer accreditation for the martial artist.

Your thoughts?

[YiLiQuan1]

Please provide a synopsis of the accreditation standards... Then, discuss how a Shotokan brown belt is able to be evaluated by a Wing Chun teacher on the validity of the Silat that said brown belt is now teaching...

Bottom line - Government involvement will confuse matters even further. We have enough trouble as it is getting X Style people to agree on the standards of X Style without complicating things by asking the Z Style folks to chime in on whether they think the X Style applicant is worth 2 cents in the first place...

What background checks are made into applicants' histories, training, teachers, etc.? I mean, what kind of checks and balances are there to prevent frauds from applying for and receiving accreditation in an effort to fool the public into thinking they're legitimate when in reality they're just another fake?

[David Jamieson]

If you are talking about creating a venue that can be governed and evaluated then yes, this would fall under combat sports such as ufc, wbc, wbf, various amateur sportive combative organizations and so on.

For styles, there are so many that you can't have a blanket group that covers them all. It becomes moot quickly. But for venues that produce a result through competition, well, that's doable because then everyone is under the same rules.

But individual arts very often have a lot of components that go beyond even the cumulative information that a commitee could have.

wing chun cannot judge choy li fut cannot judge shaolin cannot judge wutang cannot judge hung kuen cannot judge omei and so on and so forth. None of them individually have everything required to judge each other and very few within each subset have the ability to fully understand and judge only their own.

ergo, if it is not under the exact same ruleset to be judged, then it is usually just a way to get someone to pay cash to get a piece of paper that says they are this or that.

Which means nothing in comparison to what's really in your hands... so to speak.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, I think there should be standards:

a) Physical safety standards.
b) Safety standards for disease especially blood borne diseases.

So instructors should be forced to have basic CPR and first aid education, so they can give medical care if somebody gets injured, and the school curriculum should be designed towards safety.

And there should be standards and education about diseases such as hepatitis-C, staph infection, etc., which can easily pass from person to person in the school. There should be standards on protective gear against blood spattering such as requirements towards shoes and clothing, especially in regards to sparring, standards of non-porous mats, standards of cleanup, etc.

Of course, none of that is going to happen because nobody wants to worry about it.

[YiLiQuan1]

Yeah, I think there should be standards:

a) Physical safety standards.

And who would determine those? Would the same standards apply to Muay Thai that apply to Tie Cheese push-my-hands groups? Sorry to be so sarcastic, but the standardization you bring up belongs solely in the competitive venues... Otherwise training will devolve to the lowest, safest denominator (which would make my training pretty darn boring...).

b) Safety standards for disease especially blood borne diseases.

Again, primarily an issue in competitive venues, but as a business consideration it certainly bears consideration... A teacher should know something about bloodborne pathogens and how to isolate any biohazardous material. I'm lucky - my senior instructor is an RN, and 3 of our students are all surgical techs...

So instructors should be forced to have basic CPR and first aid education, so they can give medical care if somebody gets injured, and the school curriculum should be designed towards safety.

First, I disagree with "forced" CPR training. "Strongly recommended" for responsible teachers, but not forced.

Second, how do you design a fight training curriculum where nobody ever runs the risk of getting knocked around and/or injured? That's the whole point - learning to defend against an attack that would (not "could") injure you if you fail to deal with it appropriately.

And there should be standards and education about diseases such as hepatitis-C, staph infection, etc., which can easily pass from person to person in the school.

Or the student can simply read the liability waiver and realize that they're going to be in close physical contact with people they really know little or nothing about. It's a risk you take, like getting ringworm while wrestling/grappling, just worse.

There should be standards on protective gear against blood spattering such as requirements towards shoes and clothing, especially in regards to sparring, standards of non-porous mats, standards of cleanup, etc.

That will, most likely, eliminate 99% of martial arts teachers starting out... MAists are notoriously poorly funded, and I doubt anyone first opening a school has the kind of ready cash to bleed out for things that are mostly unnecessary (and were unavailable during the "not-so-good ol' days" of yore).

Of course, none of that is going to happen because nobody wants to worry about it.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

[lunghushan]

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

Yeah, so I don't go to those schools where there is hepatitis and other risks. If there is an ax to grind, yes, I think that most all schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students.

I've met many, many, many more people injured in martial arts than on the street. Such that I think martial arts the way it is taught most places is a hazardous practice that should not be engaged in to learn self defense.

So every time I go to a new school that looks like it might be interesting and see the instructors not knowing CPR, not knowing basic medical knowledge, not protecting their students, not cleaning the mats, it is a bit irksome.

It would be so easy to have some standards but instead they don't want to do it.

That, IMHO, is just criminal and stupid.

That's my 2 cents.

[YiLiQuan1]

Yeah, so I don't go to those schools where there is hepatitis and other risks.

That'd be pretty much all of them, don't you think? How do you know if your training partner, sweating and breathing all over you, isn't infected with something?

If there is an ax to grind, yes, I think that most all schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students.

There may be some, but I think saying "most" is over-generalization... I saw an RBWI class years ago where the instructor threw the student, who landed poorly and quite likely broke a toe as a result, and the instructor didn't give a second's attention to it... He walked away, and another senior student berated the injured student for not jumping up promptly to train.

However, though I realize the development of fighting spirit, the ability to continue on through pain and injury, is a vital component of martial training, that was a poor showing by the instructor... I'd say a better showing would be for the instructor to tape the toe (if he knew how), and then berate the student if he didn't at least make an attempt to continue training (whether he actually succeeded or not is something else entirely...)

I've met many, many, many more people injured in martial arts than on the street. Such that I think martial arts the way it is taught most places is a hazardous practice that should not be engaged in to learn self defense.

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

So every time I go to a new school that looks like it might be interesting and see the instructors not knowing CPR, not knowing basic medical knowledge, not protecting their students, not cleaning the mats, it is a bit irksome.

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just asking... I'm an EMT-B, I'm BLS-Healthcare and Instructor certified, and I'm also a trained massage therapist (for what that's worth), my senior instructor is an RN and a Nurse Anesthetist, and, as stated before, at least 3 of our students are surgical techs, and another is a Nurse Anesthetist as well...

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

It would be so easy to have some standards but instead they don't want to do it.

There's the trick of enforcing such standards... Given that our local government up here in WA can't handle oh-so-many things as it is (the recent windstorm is one that springs to mind, as is the "crippling" effects of only an inch or two of snow), I can't see how it can spare the money nor manpower to police the mostly slap-and-tickle schools in the greater Puget Sound area...

[SevenStar]

And who would determine those? Would the same standards apply to Muay Thai that apply to Tie Cheese push-my-hands groups? Sorry to be so sarcastic, but the standardization you bring up belongs solely in the competitive venues... Otherwise training will devolve to the lowest, safest denominator (which would make my training pretty darn boring...).


First, I disagree with "forced" CPR training. "Strongly recommended" for responsible teachers, but not forced.

to be certified as a coach in judo, you MUST be cpr certified. If I recall correctly, you cannot run a club under the usja unless you have at least one coach, meaning at least one person with a cpr cert. Fitness centers that have MA classes sometimes require a cpr cert as well.

Naturally, the governing bodies would vary from art to art, no taiji and muay thai would not be regulated in the same way. But, that is not to say that they won't both require certifications of some sort.

Second, how do you design a fight training curriculum where nobody ever runs the risk of getting knocked around and/or injured? That's the whole point - learning to defend against an attack that would (not "could") injure you if you fail to deal with it appropriately.

that's not what he said. He said it should be centered around safety, not that nobody should ever get hurt. try this test - have students spar full contact, full speed and power - like they would in a ring - with no pads. Then try it with pads. Then try it with pads and only about 80% power, etc. note the injury level changes.

Here is another test. Full speed randori (judo sparring) on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then try it on mats. This is really just common sense...

That will, most likely, eliminate 99% of martial arts teachers starting out... MAists are notoriously poorly funded, and I doubt anyone first opening a school has the kind of ready cash to bleed out for things that are mostly unnecessary (and were unavailable during the "not-so-good ol' days" of yore).

why? the school doesn't have to provide the gear, just let students know what they must purchase. And in a contact school, such things are not unnecessary at all.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind. Martial arts isn't knitting class. People get hit, thrown, bumped, bruised, and occasionally they bleed on you. It happens. Either deal with it, find a way to cope, or quit and find someplace safer to spend your free time. Dangerous pastimes carry potentially dangerous consequences. If you aren't prepared to face them, you shouldn't play in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. Mileage may, and quite likely will, vary.

you can get hit, thrown and bruised up all you want - and you can do it with safety provisions. I find it somewhat ironic that a muay thai and judo guy is having this discussion, but knowing and seeing the damage that can be done on a mat and with pads, I also know the greater damage that can be done without them.

[YiLiQuan1]

to be certified as a coach in judo, you MUST be cpr certified. If I recall correctly, you cannot run a club under the usja unless you have at least one coach, meaning at least one person with a cpr cert. Fitness centers that have MA classes sometimes require a cpr cert as well.

Granted... But the judo governing bodies are organizations sanctioning training for a competitive arena. You can certainly train judo while outside the auspices of such an organization. The comment from lunghushan was that "most schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students," which my experience shows to not only be the case, but rather the complete opposite. The schools in my area (down by Fort Lewis, where lunghushan is in Seattle) are almost overly concerned with the potential for injury, to the degree that most of them hardly resemble fighting arts at all! All the schools that deal with throws/falls/ukemi/etc. have more than adequate mats/protective flooring, and the schools that actually make contact (there aren't many from what I've seen) have fully adequate provision for pads/gloves/etc.

As for lunghushan's concerns about pathogenic contamination, it's a valid concern, but one that has to be dealt with individually. Even mats that are scrubbed/mopped with bleach will still manage to transmit ringworm. It happens. If a person doesn't want the risk, then they can choose not to participate in that particular art/style/sport.

Naturally, the governing bodies would vary from art to art, no taiji and muay thai would not be regulated in the same way. But, that is not to say that they won't both require certifications of some sort.

That doesn't appear to be what the Aussies are doing. They have a Governmental body that somehow manages to license or otherwise sanction all and sundry. I don't care enough to research it far enough to debate every point of their process; I don't believe MA need to be Governmentally controlled, period.

that's not what he said. He said it should be centered around safety, not that nobody should ever get hurt. try this test - have students spar full contact, full speed and power - like they would in a ring - with no pads. Then try it with pads. Then try it with pads and only about 80% power, etc. note the injury level changes.

That goes without saying. I took lunghushan's generalization to imply that this basic safety consideration doesn't exist where he's at (which simply can't be true in as broad a scope as his post implies).

Here is another test. Full speed randori (judo sparring) on a hardwood or concrete floor. Then try it on mats. This is really just common sense...

Again, I don't debate this. This is good common sense, but as lunghushan seems to imply, it simply isn't the case up in Seattle... I doubt this to be true for the MA community at large, but then I avoid Seattle like the plague...

why? the school doesn't have to provide the gear, just let students know what they must purchase. And in a contact school, such things are not unnecessary at all.

The school is going to expect the students to bring mats along with? What about kick shields? Sure, they can buy their own marshmallow helmets, mittens, and footies, but following lunghushan's outline, the school should pad every firm surface... That's gonna cost moneys. Seriously, though, he said that instructors should "protect their students." I guess that means something different to different people.

you can get hit, thrown and bruised up all you want - and you can do it with safety provisions.

In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way.

I find it somewhat ironic that a muay thai and judo guy is having this discussion, but knowing and seeing the damage that can be done on a mat and with pads, I also know the greater damage that can be done without them.

Are you implying that I'm a Muay Thai and/or Judo guy? I'm not... I train in Yiliquan and Modern Army Combatives (we don't wear pads there, either, and often train outside in the grass, on the dirt, etc., as opposed to in the gym on mats), and I've trained in karate, Modern Arnis, and other arts in the past.

Bottom line - it's training to learn to fight. There are inherent risks that should be mitigated somehow (be it mats, pads, or just plain old-fashioned proper training), but they can't and won't be avoided entirely. Those wishing to see arts trained in a 100% incident free environment are deluded, as zero-tolerance environments often create potentially injurious situations in their quest for zero-tolerance...

[lunghushan]

That'd be pretty much all of them, don't you think? How do you know if your training partner, sweating and breathing all over you, isn't infected with something?

That's why I severely limit my training partners.

There may be some, but I think saying "most" is over-generalization... I saw an RBWI class years ago where the instructor threw the student, who landed poorly and quite likely broke a toe as a result, and the instructor didn't give a second's attention to it... He walked away, and another senior student berated the injured student for not jumping up promptly to train.

I can't name one place that I know of that uses non-porous mats, cleans the mats after every class, has an instructor that knows CPR and basic first aid, and makes students wear protective gear for every physical contact.

I can't name a single place.

However, though I realize the development of fighting spirit, the ability to continue on through pain and injury, is a vital component of martial training, that was a poor showing by the instructor... I'd say a better showing would be for the instructor to tape the toe (if he knew how), and then berate the student if he didn't at least make an attempt to continue training (whether he actually succeeded or not is something else entirely...)

Yeah, broken toes are part and parcel of training. It would be hard to avoid broken toes.

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

Right, there are very few people who get assaulted on the street. As for learning aggression, that's not what I'm really talking about here.

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just asking... I'm an EMT-B, I'm BLS-Healthcare and Instructor certified, and I'm also a trained massage therapist (for what that's worth), my senior instructor is an RN and a Nurse Anesthetist, and, as stated before, at least 3 of our students are surgical techs, and another is a Nurse Anesthetist as well...

That's good for you. I'm not an instructor. I've had basic CPR training several times, and got my merit badges in the boy scouts. LOL. But I'm not an RN or anything.

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

In 20 some years I've come across more broken, smashed fingers or toes than I can keep track of, 2 broken arms, several dislocations, a few knockouts, several people hitting themselves in the eyes with sticks or getting jabbed in the eye, a detached retina, and plenty of blood everywhere not always cleaned up, which I didn't think was a problem until somebody educated me on hep-C.

There's the trick of enforcing such standards... Given that our local government up here in WA can't handle oh-so-many things as it is (the recent windstorm is one that springs to mind, as is the "crippling" effects of only an inch or two of snow), I can't see how it can spare the money nor manpower to police the mostly slap-and-tickle schools in the greater Puget Sound area...

Yeah, how lame is that. I can't believe how slow they were getting electricity restored. There are still a ton of places they haven't even gotten to yet. I think the only reason we got power back after 24 hours is we're on the same line as a police station and city offices.

I was joking to somebody that if they fixed the electricity as fast as they fixed the roads, it wouldn't all be up for a week. And about 5 minutes later on the radio they said to expect not everybody would be back up for a week.

A lot of that though is due to the Seattle work ethic. 10% work. 20% coffee breaks, 30% meetings and 40% chatting.

[SevenStar]

I'd counter that there are far, far fewer people engaged in "street" encounters than KOMO4 or any of the other reactionary news stations here locally would have us believe... Martial training, by its very core nature, is violent and dangerous. It is simply an integral part of training. If your training doesn't risk your injury, then it's nowhere remotely close to "realistic," is it? You wouldn't be learning to defend against a violent attacker, but a safe, non-threatening classmate, and that's something entirely different, don't you think?

at your school, what do you do that supposedly makes it any more or less realistic?

Perhaps... Then again, what are your CPR and medical certifications? Do you hold yourself to the same standards of training that you expect from these schools?

I know you weren't talking to me, but I am indeed cpr certified. It's not required where I teach muay thai, but I feel it would be helpful all the same. The gym I lift at wants me to start teaching there, and they DO require a cert.

Though, as a counter-point, in 21 years of training I've seen or otherwise directly experienced no more than a half-dozen nosebleeds, cut fingers (during weapons work), smashed fingers (again, weapons), and only 2 or 3 KOs. That's pretty safe, considering the amount of contact we use...

in judo and bjj, I've seen broken collarbones, torn ligaments, unconsciousness, severe bruises, countless broken toes, broken ribs... Where is the difference in our levels of contact? In muay thai, I've seen broken ribs, nosebleeds, muscle strains, sprains and KOs. I've seen some badly jammed fingers in all three.

[lunghushan]

to be certified as a coach in judo, you MUST be cpr certified. If I recall correctly, you cannot run a club under the usja unless you have at least one coach, meaning at least one person with a cpr cert. Fitness centers that have MA classes sometimes require a cpr cert as well.

That's pretty cool. I didn't know that about judo. They do have standards for judo and jujitsu, and other organizations, actually. Like BJJ before tournaments they check you over for ringworm and herpes and stuff.

that's not what he said. He said it should be centered around safety, not that nobody should ever get hurt. try this test - have students spar full contact, full speed and power - like they would in a ring - with no pads. Then try it with pads. Then try it with pads and only about 80% power, etc. note the injury level changes.

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to be 100% safe with martial arts, like you can't be 100% safe with driving, or 100% safe with restaurants, or work, etc.

But with driving they have laws, and restaurants they have the health code, and work they have OSHA, etc. Martial arts there should be some standards.

why? the school doesn't have to provide the gear, just let students know what they must purchase. And in a contact school, such things are not unnecessary at all.

It doesn't seem like it would be that expensive. Even an instructor getting CPR, shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars.

And if it's a non-contact school like taiji with no contact then of course they wouldn't have to go through the same certifications as a school that has more contact.

Actually the two broken arms that I came across were from Judo ... throws that went bad because the person resisted. I don't think that you can get around some injury, it is martial arts practice, but it seems like there should be some standards.

I guess what I mean in terms of the physical injury stuff is that I've seen some instructors doing just some stupid stuff, like training with wooden swords, or real swords instead of padded ones (that's where the detached retina came from, lady got hit in the eye with a wooden sword), or strong students who had no control dominating and pummeling people.

But there are other things too, like proper stretching, opening up the kua, things that can be done differently to avoid a lot of injuries.

You can't avoid everything, but I think there should be some standards so people can be safer.

[SevenStar]

Granted... But the judo governing bodies are organizations sanctioning training for a competitive arena. You can certainly train judo while outside the auspices of such an organization. The comment from lunghushan was that "most schools are stupid in regards to basic things like health and safety of their students," which my experience shows to not only be the case, but rather the complete opposite. The schools in my area (down by Fort Lewis, where lunghushan is in Seattle) are almost overly concerned with the potential for injury, to the degree that most of them hardly resemble fighting arts at all! All the schools that deal with throws/falls/ukemi/etc. have more than adequate mats/protective flooring, and the schools that actually make contact (there aren't many from what I've seen) have fully adequate provision for pads/gloves/etc.

Gotcha.

As for lunghushan's concerns about pathogenic contamination, it's a valid concern, but one that has to be dealt with individually. Even mats that are scrubbed/mopped with bleach will still manage to transmit ringworm. It happens. If a person doesn't want the risk, then they can choose not to participate in that particular art/style/sport.

that's true. We scrub and mop after every class, but ringworm still occurs.

The school is going to expect the students to bring mats along with? What about kick shields? Sure, they can buy their own marshmallow helmets, mittens, and footies, but following lunghushan's outline, the school should pad every firm surface... That's gonna cost moneys. Seriously, though, he said that instructors should "protect their students." I guess that means something different to different people.

I can see your point there. There are cheaper options, though. Before we got tatamis, we had some really nice wrestling mats that were donated from a local high school, as they were about in the process of getting new mats. My first judo club also trained on donated wrestling mats.

In our school, we don't wear headgear, gloves, booties, mouthpieces or cups. You learn to defend yourself, or you get hit. It's good incentive to get the hell out of the way.

sure it is. It's also a good way to KO someone if they don't move. I have broken someone's ribs from a kick while wearing shin pads. without one, it may have been worse. nosebleeds and such happen while wearing gloves and headgear. When you spar a lot and with decent level of contact (and you guys may - I don't know) you are increasing your chance for injury by sparring with no gear. When I was training longfist, we were sparring with no gear and I broke a guy's nose with a roundhouse. he was a higher rank than me, but when you spar, things like that happen. even though he was higher ranked, he couldn't evade ALL the time.

Are you implying that I'm a Muay Thai and/or Judo guy? I'm not...

Nah, I was referring to me. it was ironic that I was replying.

Bottom line - it's training to learn to fight. There are inherent risks that should be mitigated somehow (be it mats, pads, or just plain old-fashioned proper training), but they can't and won't be avoided entirely. Those wishing to see arts trained in a 100% incident free environment are deluded, as zero-tolerance environments often create potentially injurious situations in their quest for zero-tolerance...

no disagreement there.

[YiLiQuan1]

That's why I severely limit my training partners.

Maybe I'm insufficiently concerned, but I'd rather have lots of training partners than live in fear of cross-contamination. There are so many potential vectors for the spread of infectious disease that there's almost no possible way to avoid them all... Something's going to get you eventually...

I can't name one place that I know of that uses non-porous mats, cleans the mats after every class, has an instructor that knows CPR and basic first aid, and makes students wear protective gear for every physical contact.

"Every physical contact?" Please elaborate... It'd be darn hard to train while wearing a body condom or HAZMAT suit...

Yeah, broken toes are part and parcel of training. It would be hard to avoid broken toes.

I'm either misinterpreting sarcasm, or you misunderstood my comment. I meant to say that the broken toes were avoidable, and the instructor showed far less than adequate concern. Of course, knuckle-head was the one that executed a ****-poor fall (that's also the instructor's fault, as their skills are mediocre at best), so he actually hurt himself if you choose to look at it that way...

Right, there are very few people who get assaulted on the street. As for learning aggression, that's not what I'm really talking about here.

I getcha...

That's good for you. I'm not an instructor. I've had basic CPR training several times, and got my merit badges in the boy scouts. LOL. But I'm not an RN or anything.

We're required in our style to learn first aid for a number of conditions, CPR, and at higher levels we are required to document formal training in one of a number of healthcare modalities, both "traditional" and/or "modern." The point is, you need to balance "hurt" with "heal." We recognize that, and incorporate it into the doctrinal fiber of our training.

In 20 some years I've come across more broken, smashed fingers or toes than I can keep track of, 2 broken arms, several dislocations, a few knockouts, several people hitting themselves in the eyes with sticks or getting jabbed in the eye, a dislocated retina, and plenty of blood everywhere not always cleaned up, which I didn't think was a problem until somebody educated me on hep-C.

You've either had some killer training, or you've been playing with some folks who need adult supervision! Even when I did Arnis I only suffered a few minor "self-inflicted" stick hickeys and one or two fingers that got in the way of an errant stick.

Yeah, how lame is that. I can't believe how slow they were getting electricity restored. There are still a ton of places they haven't even gotten to yet. I think the only reason we got power back after 24 hours is we're on the same line as a police station and city offices.

I was joking to somebody that if they fixed the electricity as fast as they fixed the roads, it wouldn't all be up for a week. And about 5 minutes later on the radio they said to expect not everybody would be back up for a week.

A lot of that though is due to the Seattle work ethic. 10% work. 20% coffee breaks, 30% meetings and 40% chatting.

I love Washington, and I plan on retiring here after I get out of the Army (5 more years!), however it seems that the "leadership" of WA (if you can call it that) would like to spend more time talking about how jacked up things are than actually doing anything about it. The news stations would have you believe that there are murderers around every corner and pedophiles packing every school playground. My favorite was how KOMO4 played up the DC Sniper by leading every news segment about his "expert marksmanship" (which is complete BS, as the longest shot he took was well under 200 meters, which is only the "50 yard line" for our rifle qualification and nowhere near the 400 meter mark real snipers fire at regularly...) with his supposed connection to the Army via his stint at Fort Lewis over a decade earlier...

[YiLiQuan1]

at your school, what do you do that supposedly makes it any more or less realistic?

Y'know, to be perfectly honest, I don't know how I could honestly answer that... Once upon a time, as a young student, I probably could have. Now, with my exposure to the "realtime" training of grappling (via judo and MACP), I think the only "more realism" bit we bring to the party is the fact that when we "spar" (I hate that word), you're as likely to get smacked or punched in the head, as you as to have your legs swept out from under you, as you are to have chin na done fast and hard enough to send you flying into a good face plant. We don't "spar" in the sense that we circle each other, throwing tons of techniques; we face off, and one person attempts to take advantage of a perceived opening, and then either dusts the other guy or gets dusted for his troubles.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I am indeed cpr certified. It's not required where I teach muay thai, but I feel it would be helpful all the same. The gym I lift at wants me to start teaching there, and they DO require a cert.

When I taught at my teacher's school, there was no issue as he was always present and new far more about first aid and TCM than I would have had exposure to at the time. When I taught at another school (a TKD place that wanted us to offer training with them), I was already Red Cross CPR certified due to my hospital job. Later, I was in the Army and taught at the post gym. Again, already CPR certified, so not an issue (in fact, it was a deciding factor in their accepting the contract). When I taught at a civilian health club, they wanted no end of personal liability insurance, first aid/CPR training, liability waivers, etc. So I've dealt with the whole gamut. I've pursued "medical" training for my own reasons, though, moreso than a feeling of responsibility (though if I'm teaching I do feel responsible for the welfare of my students).

in judo and bjj, I've seen broken collarbones, torn ligaments, unconsciousness, severe bruises, countless broken toes, broken ribs... Where is the difference in our levels of contact? In muay thai, I've seen broken ribs, nosebleeds, muscle strains, sprains and KOs. I've seen some badly jammed fingers in all three.

We've had "water knuckles" from makiwara training, the occasional sprain due to hyperextension (and occasionally a subsequent fall, which is always entertaining ), bruises from strikes (especially the "vital point" striking training and training with someone going through Iron Palm training), etc. We're not injury free by any means, but I can't really recall anything that was terribly, terribly, terrible either.