Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[Alan Orr]

Oh god here we go again the old I cant prove what I think wing chun should look like works but look here is a top level MMA guy using something like what I think it should validation argument
Ok lets examine the argument apart shall we….. jones has something like a 10 inch reach advantage on everyone he fights, his reach is longer than most peoples kicking range which is why he gets away with the above,
And even in this fight you see the problem with this kind of guard the smaller less skilled striker still clipped him with over hands and uppercuts. Try doing that with a half decent boxer your own size and you will get rocked out, I know this because its happened to me and ive done it to others …we had a few wing chun people pop through leister shootfighters in the 10 years I was there and this is how I dealt with the problem, head movement and overhand
The above also has two other issues , leaving your lead arm out their exposes your ribs and core to kicks (which isn’t a problem for jones because of his reach), and also exposes your lead leg to the takedown, again jones’s reach makes the distance too wide for the single to be really effective, and his level of wrestling makes it even harder to take him down, actually you see in this fight his opponent gets the single a couple of times because of the stance used by jones, but cant finish because of jones’s wrestling skills
unless you are jones and have a reach longer than a normal persons kicking range and are a D1 wrestler this isn’t going to work for you so please stop validating what you think should work by using a world class athletic freak…
And as an aside what does jones do when he gets clipped by the overhand in that fight?, he covers up like alans guys do…

Good post bro

[BPWT..]

It's when you and KPM keep suggesting that what they do is not "straight up" Wing Chun, but something modified to suit the MMA environment. That is saying what they're doing isn't Wing Chun. See your most recent "incorporating axe kicks" example.

To be honest, if what they are doing was modified to suit MMA, it wouldn't bother me. If they say it isn't, that's cool too - but then people have asked for some details that would explain it as such. Alan said he didn't want to "teach his system" here on the forum. Which was not really what I was asking. I think anyone can see this if they look at the posts, honestly.

The only point I am pressing is that is someone says 'What we do is Wing Chun, it is not modified or adjusted, etc, it is our Wing Chun,' then on a discussion forum it is hardly an insult to then ask those people to explain in more detail so we can understand that better.

The axe kick example I was giving was simply to point out (to you) that the end result of a fight is not what is being questioned here. You said how can what the CSL guys do be 'compromised' from a Wing Chun perspective if they are knocking people out. I replied that the knock out is not the issue, but rather what was used to get it. I want to understand what they used. (to add, I didn't say that their Wing Chun is compromised - I asked them to explain how it is not. I've been trying to word these things as nicely as I can - so that it doesn't get people all uptight)

So I gave you another example. A boxer, Tyson, head butting someone. The head butt might knock the other guy out, but was he using boxing by doing the head butt. I think the answer is obviously "no."

So if I see sparring that has punching and a guard position that appears to me to be more based on boxing than Wing Chun methods, I ask how those punches and guard fit into Alan's system. It's hardly an insulting question. I am not saying Alan is cr@p, not saying his system is cr@p, not saying he doesn't have knowledge or skill... I am just asking him to explain something I cannot see, so that if I am wrong, I can see why I am wrong.

Let me put it this way. In your WSLVT you guys train hard to have a particular elbow position. If I saw you sparring and throughout that I saw you using almost exclusively a very different elbow position, would it be insulting for me to say to you, "LFJ, I really can't see in your sparring the WSLVT elbow work that you train. The elbow positioning you were just using, how does that fit into your WSLVT training? It looks different, but does it fit into your system's concepts and methods? If so, how?"

Would you say that I was insulting you, your teacher, your system and your hard work in training?

If so, you have pretty thin skin, and you're rather easily offended, IMO.

You on the other hand, say things like "But unlike LTWT, CSLWC is not just a stylized way of getting your ass kicked," and that, of course, is a rather obvious insult and shows that you'd rather be petty and not engage in actually discussing something.

[Frost]

Many valid points! Would you say that the Man Sau Wu Sau guard (or something similar to it) has more limitations/problems than not? Or would you advocate using it with certain disclaimers?
.

I would never advocate using an extended guard in an allout fight, in a potential confrontation I like to use the fence (as a bakmei guy I find the fence similar to one version of our on guard position) because you can occupy their space and keep them at arm’s length but if the confrontation become physical I prefer a cover and shield mentality unless I hit first and pr emt everything
As an aside the hung gar I have studied, as well as the bakmei and yung ying ALL have both extended guards and close cover guards, which you use depending in the situation (hell bakmei has movements that are classic crazy monkey in approach or for you chinese matial artists (combing the hair”)
The extended guard works well if all you are fighting is another southern short arm centreline art, but outside of this environment I don’t think its advisable to use it as your main guard

Exactly, when he "gets clipped." Alan's guys do this in that range too, and I have no problem with it. Like I said, it is about time frames.

The question I asked was why they would choose to assume this position before the other guy throws a punch? For a boxer, I understand it can make sense - but as a Wing Chun guy, would you want to cover to take the hits on the hands/gloves? .

Its not about wanting to do something, its about having to do something, you spar you must realise then when facing an opponent as good or better than you how fast these guys are, how quickly they can throw combinations and the angles they come from, why wait until you get clipped to use a guard when you can already be in that guard and throwing shots out of it? For me when I fight its about mimimalising space that my opponent can hit me, so I keep my elbows in, my chin tucked, my hands close and high.

If yes, how does that fit into your Wing Chun concepts? That is what I was asking..

Wing chun is but a small part of my personal art, I find some of it useful but I don’t see it as a complete art so I cant answer your question, what I can say is that alans approach is classical southern chinese art stuff as I see them

[BPWT..]

Thanks for the info.

When you say 'fence' are you meaning like Geoff Thompson fence's, something like this (attached)?



For me, this would be like a modified Man Sau Wu position. Differences, but enough similarities to make it Wing Tsun applicable (meaning it would fit with what we would want/try to do from offence or defence).

Why wait until you get clipped to use a guard when you can already be in that guard and throwing shots out of it?

Yes, it makes some sense. Personally, I think with Wing Tsun we wouldn't want to be throwing shots (from range, rather than close) if our hands are up by our heads, as many of our strikes come from the elbow being in and our arms more in front of the body (as opposed to elbows tucked in, but by the side of the body, and hands by the side of the face).

For me when I fight its about mimimalising space that my opponent can hit me, so I keep my elbows in, my chin tucked, my hands close and high.

I think we're looking to minimise space too, but more the space in front - so maybe this is a conceptual different between Wing Chun/Wing Tsun and the arts you study? Edit: To add, I think this attached photo is a good example of minimising space - and similar in that respect to Man/Wu.

[BPWT..]

Ummm... probably I should try and 'minimise' these photos.

[Frost]

Thanks for the info.

When you say 'fence' are you meaning like Geoff Thompson fence's, something like this (attached)?



For me, this would be like a modified Man Sau Wu position. Differences, but enough similarities to make it Wing Tsun applicable (meaning it would fit with what we would want/try to do from offence or defence).

Why wait until you get clipped to use a guard when you can already be in that guard and throwing shots out of it?

Yes, it makes some sense. Personally, I think with Wing Tsun we wouldn't want to be throwing shots (from range, rather than close) if our hands are up by our heads, as many of our strikes come from the elbow being in and our arms more in front of the body (as opposed to elbows tucked in, but by the side of the body, and hands by the side of the face).

For me when I fight its about mimimalising space that my opponent can hit me, so I keep my elbows in, my chin tucked, my hands close and high.

I think we're looking to minimise space too, but more the space in front - so maybe this is a conceptual different between Wing Chun/Wing Tsun and the arts you study? Edit: To add, I think this attached photo is a good example of minimising space - and similar in that respect to Man/Wu.

I have studied wing chun (not as long as some here but the time was in years rather than months) , my current sifu’s first art he learned and taught was wing chun so I understand a little about it
And both hung gar and bak mei (and pretty much all southern and hakka arts I have seen) also seek to occupy the centre and the space in front of them , BUT this tends to work best when your opponent also thinks a similar way and is not there only option

Case in point hung gar used to look a lot like wing chun, if you look at the start of the pillar forms you will see the same stance, same centre space occupation, and so on, yet when the Lama Pai master turned up in canton and basically beat everyone up and became the number one tiger and fighter in the province with long arm techniques and a none bridging aproach WFH realised something was missing so studied with this gentleman, added in the longer arm movements footwork and slipping movements into his hung gar and it became more well-rounded as a result

I personally think wing chun as taught by the majority is an incomplete art, I see what alan does as being very similar to the southern arts I know (this is my opinion only) but is what he does how wing chun should look like in a fight against an opponent not doing wing chun and who is skilled….., well to be honest we don’t have anything to compare it to do we so its hard to say he is wrong and others are right….….

[Frost]

Ummm... probably I should try and 'minimise' these photos.

Yes that’s the fence, I use it to keep distance and monitor my opponent in space in a non-threatening manner, and to trigger a response if the opponent touches my arm, difference is if he is in a guard and coming towards me to hit my I wouldn’t be in that position because the fights gone past passive aggressive talk straight into hitting and then I want a proper guard
As I said it looks a lot like a lot of different guards in southern arts, but those other arts also have other guards to hit out of, and according to alans version of wing chun they do too

[BPWT..]

As I said it looks a lot like a lot of different guards in southern arts, but those other arts also have other guards to hit out of, and according to alans version of wing chun they do too

Yes, this is part of what I am trying to understand better.

And thanks for the info on hung gar and bak mei, interesting stuff.

[Wayfaring]

I mean this: if a Wing Chun guy used an axe kick to someone's head, that kick might well have compromised his Wing Chun body method, his Wing Chun structure - maybe it would be in conflict with his Wing Chun concepts.

If the kick knocks the other guy out cold, that's a great result! But was it a kick using Wing Chun's methods? The result (positive) of the kick isn't the issue.

For me, this would be a YES. Axe kicks in sparring - YES. But only on Fridays, as that is my "bring back the 80's" time I am allowed to do that with my training partners. And that is sometimes followed with "I can't believe you actually landed that sh1z on me" However other times I look much more RexKwonDo

I'm sorry. We were in the middle of compromising Wing Chun?

Carry on.

[tc101]

Oh god here we go again the old I cant prove what I think wing chun should look like works but look here is a top level MMA guy using something like what I think it should validation argument

Very good. It is so funny. They point to non wing chun people who are fighting and use them as examples of what they think wing chun should look like. But then when they have real wing chun people really fighting and being successful they don't like what they see. The non wing chun person uses wing chun when they fight and the wing chun person uses non wing chun when he fights. It's crazy.

[BPWT..]

They point to non wing chun people who are fighting and use them as examples of what they think wing chun should look like.

Who pointed to non Wing Chun people and used them as an example of what Wing Chun should look like?

I pointed to something to illustrate an idea.

[Alan Orr]

---

Very good. It is so funny. They point to non wing chun people who are fighting and use them as examples of what they think wing chun should look like. But then when they have real wing chun people really fighting and being successful they don't like what they see. The non wing chun person uses wing chun when they fight and the wing chun person uses non wing chun when he fights. It's crazy.

I'm happy to see I'm not the only crazy one lol

[Alan Orr]

Nope. I said I can't see the Wing Chun in the sparring clip, for example, and said what I saw look more akin to two boxers sparring. I ask them if they could explain how what is going on is from their Wing Chun methods.

More insults and name calling came than explanation, and Alan said he didn't want to waste the time explaining. Why you're throwing in insults too is beyond me.

You were the same on the Kevin/Obasi thread - arguing a point with more insults than explanation, though by the end you did seem to admit that there wasn't too much you could say in Kevin's defense (though you didn't start that way).

As Glenn pointed out - different opinions don't need to be taken as insults. Heck, you're doing your best to actually insult me and I don't give a cr@p.

I have posted examples and answered questions. You then asked about our structure which is a whole book of information. So no I don't have time to explain that to you.

Insults? Stop playing on this. You where rude about what you could and couldn't see. I said if you can't see it then you have a lower level of understanding of wing chun - just my opinion not an insults - just like you said your not insulting my wing chub fighters by saying where just using boxing or mma.

[Alan Orr]

It's when you and KPM keep suggesting that what they do is not "straight up" Wing Chun, but something modified to suit the MMA environment. That is saying what they're doing isn't Wing Chun. See your most recent "incorporating axe kicks" example.

You continually challenging people to "prove" their tactics conform to the model of Wing Chun is a way to challenge them against your opinion that it isn't in fact Wing Chun. To be honest, it's not just a matter of you showing interest in their method, you actually believe they are doing something extra that is not Wing Chun and want to press the point.

Good post !

[Alan Orr]

This was my post - sharing the success of wing chun training!

I even said at the start that for sure some will not see the wing chun. As I know some styles are very focused on seeing the training drills as the application. Which I am trying to show people is not always the case.



Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun
Hi Guys

This my fighter Josh 4-0 PRO mma with a big KO!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RekowrObGTI

Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun teacher Alan Orr's student Josh Kaldani lands a knockdown in the first round and the best Wing Chun punch KO in MMA in the second round.

The Iron Wolves Team is lead by Alan Orr and has for many years been putting CSL Wing Chun to test in the Cage and Ring.

Some people will ask where is the Wing Chun as they think you should see basic training drills. In application you see the result of our training - power, structure of movement, timing, positional control, angles of punches. You will see our CSL Chinese Boxing Skills. Wing Chun is Chinese Boxing.

MMA is Mixed Martial Arts so we train the arts we need.

Stand up -
Alan Orr is a Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 8th Degree Black Belt under his Master Robert Chu

Ground game
Alan Orr is a Black Belt in BJJ under his Master World Champion Leo Negao

Also Alan has a background in Catch Wrestling. plus some training in Sambo and Judo.



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