Baduanjin (8-section brocade)

[extrajoseph]

yes, your own level of understanding is far too incomprehensible for me
and btw, you might want to examine these control-freak tendencies you consistently display in regards to your repeatedly dictating the terms under which I should continue to post or not;
NEXT!

Nothing will stop you from posting, so why worry about me?

There is no need for us to exchange and share, we are just too different, so let it be. I can sense this right from the beginning.

"lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that..." Of course you would say that, because you have not gone beyond him and you never will, by the sound of it.

So just do your own thing and I do mine.

DISENGAGING!

[taai gihk yahn]

Nothing will stop you from posting, so why worry about me?

I don't; just pointing out ur imbalance;

There is no need for us to exchange and share, we are just too different, so let it be. I can sense this right from the beginning.

yeah, whatever you say, Kreskin...

"lol, you have no idea what it's like pushing with him...nothing like u describe, it goes infinitely "deeper" than that..." Of course you would say that, because you have not gone beyond him and you never will, by the sound of it.

of course you would say that because your concept of what encompasses root and stability is based on a limited linear construct; as far as "going beyond him", yet again, you are stuck in a limited, linear hierarchical ego-construct and therefore do not understand that there is nothing to "go beyond";

Just do your own thing and I do mine.

again, those CFT's manifesting!

DISENGAGING!

and yet I suspect u'll be back...

[Scott R. Brown]

Master Shi's gongfu is much deeper and you can tell by the stance, he is stable and strong because he can root his body to the ground by aligning it with the gravitational force and that is being vertical and straight (zhongzheng 中正) without sacrificing the curvature of the spine.

I don’t know EJ….it appears to me that you are really reaching here. If the guy on the left is Master Shi, I have so say his rightward lean is making him less stable and is clearly poor alignment. The rightward lean is over stressing his right leg so he is not balancing his energy properly in this particular picture. He is NEITHER “vertical” NOR “straight” as you stated and he is NOT aligned “with the gravitational force” because of his lean; his spine cannot be in proper alignment because of his lean as well. What I don’t understand is how you cannot see this, very clear, rightward lean.

Further: His rear shoulder is too high which creates tension in the shoulder and neck and negatively affects his stability as well! The raised rear shoulder is probably contributing to his rightward lean. Even if he is doing this for a specific reason in this picture or if he is in the process of moving from one position to another you cannot, with accuracy, say his gungfu is deeper based upon this picture.

And lastly, he is clearly NOT in deeper stance and his left wrist is bent at an awkward angle because he is reaching too high into his armpit, which is raising his shoulder and influencing the rightward lean. This is very clearly poor alignment.

Master Sat's gongfu is shallow by comparison because he is not rooted and that is due to his inability to align his body with the gravitational force. The trouble is in his knees and his hip, and as you said he leans a bit too far forward in order to get down.

Concerning Master Hon, again, I do not see what you see. I think your bias is coming through.

Master Hon is clearly more centered in his stance. His weight is even distributed between his legs. It does appear that his head could be tilted a bit more to align his crown with the sky and perhaps his shoulders could also be opened up just a bit more.

It is entirely possible that the forward lean is an illusion due to his belly size and perhaps his rear shoulder is just slightly high as well. The rear wrist however is in better alignment than Master Shi’s and Master Hon’s stance is CLEARLY more stable from the waist down. As a matter of fact when I first saw the picture of Master Hon, it struck me like a gong that his stance is exceptionally stable. He is also clearly in a deeper stance than Master Shi. Just look at the top of the thighs. Master Hon’s thighs are almost parallel to the ground while Master Shi’s are not! Overall Master Hon is much more relaxed than Master Shi. This reflects his emotional stability/balance which is also an indication of deep gung fu.

Master Shi's upper body is open while Master Sat is closed and that is partially caused by the difference in the way the fingers are configured in the front arm and also how the elbow is stretched in the back. Consequently Master Shi's body weight is able to travel downward solidly whereas Master Sat has to hold it up and as a result his qi is blocked in the hip and the knees.

It does appear that Master Shi’s shoulders are more open, but again, this could be an artifact of body structure and/or the clothing worn. Once again, Master Shi’s rear elbow is back so far that it is too high and is causing his rightward lean, and again, I believe this to be due to his wrist reaching abnormally high into the armpit.

I think you are exactly opposite on the hips and knees however. Master Hon is clearly more stable from the hips down. Master Shi’s severe rightward lean negates just about everything correct about his stance.

In the higher level of training "the God is in the details", one gets a feeling he is posing for the picture and can't wait for the photographer to finish so he can get up, whereas Master Shi is just going through his pace leisurely.

Again, I think you are reading into it. It is very clear that Master Hon is extremely stable, relaxed and appears capable of maintaining that stance as long as he likes. I think what you see as tension, I see as stability.

Before I comment on your next post please allow me to make a few qualifying comments about my above post:

1) I do not know either Master Shi or Master Hon. I have not read any of their books, been to a lecture or seminar and I have not seen any video or performance of their Chi Kung.

2) I think it is very dodgy to make the kind of assessment you AND I have made concerning both of these pictures. One picture taken out of context, one moment of time, cannot be used to fairly assess anyone’s level of gungfu. It is actually very immature, and perhaps a bit egocentric/arrogant, to do so! I did so as an academic exercise and to demonstrate how two experienced people can see the same things and come to two different conclusions. In the future I would be very careful, I think, to make such arbitrary comments as yours about anyone because of one snapshot in time. At least if your desire is to have your opinion considered and respected as one experienced and knowledgeable about the topic under discussion.

If that is not your concern, then of course, full steam ahead!

That is why I have not answer your question because you are not at the level where I can communicate with you (I know, it sounds like I am boasting) and if you cannot see the gross mistakes your teacher is making, how can you expect me to make you appreciate the subtle details? It is not about whether it is being forthright or not it is about whether I should waste my time.

Taking your above comments as an example it appears that you are also not at a level where others can communicate with you!

You mischaracterized both photos according to your bias and missed very apparent and salient indicators of incorrect posture.

In fact, you cannot see the gross errors in posture of Master Shi.

So, perhaps you are boasting a bit more than your experience can support!

[Scott R. Brown]

As an addendum to my above comments:

Upon more careful examination of Master Hon's Photo, it appears this clothing is billowing due to air flow, this gives the impression of a large belly that may not in fact be present. This billowing appears to proceed up the clothing to the chest which could also account for the appearance of a slightly forward lean and improperly positioned shoulder blades.

All this means, once again, is that a responsible, mature person would want be be cautious when making critical statements about a photo that is but a moment in time!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Scott,

There is no point in counter arguments because it will only be words (hot air), I would put my money on Master Shi if the two ever decided to "strength test" each other in this posture, ("strength test" is not push hands, it is just static extension of force onto each other in this fixed posture) but of course it will never happen, so we'd just go away with our own way of seeing, but at least now we have two alternatives to think about. May be others will join in and have their own take, all the better, the exercise stimulates us how to see the hidden structures and it is also a rough indicator of our experience, and perhaps our bias.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well EJ the thing is you made claims you cannot support. If you meant that you believe Master Shi would do better in a contest you could have said so in a much more effective manner rather than incorrectly assess two photos that are a moment in time.

You clearly saw what you wanted to see, and NOT what was there and do not seem to realize that both of our assessments are unfair to the two men in the photos.

Life is dynamic! It is in constant flux. There is no such thing as the perfect stance or form. Any sense or idea of perfection is an affectation.

Until you realize this for yourself your 40 years of experience doesn't amount to as much as you believe it does!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Scott,

There is no perfect stance or form but there is a concept called "wuwei' and "youwei", and it depends on you which path you want to follow.

I agree with you, my 40 years of experience doesn't amount to much, except it taught me "wuwei" is the way to go, but again I could be wrong and wasted my 40 years.

What about you?

Don't worry if you don't understand what I am talking about, they are just words that came to my head reading your post.

PS: As for being unfair to both masters, we are both doing it but they are just our opinions, nothing more. Both of these masters, if they are worth their salt, would not worry about what we have said about them at all, they would just have a smile on their face, and go on with their practice.

[CFT]

again, those CFT's manifesting!

Oy oy! I'm manifesting myself here.

Scott is right in that one shouldn't take an absolute view of things from a static photo, especially when both are wearing baggy/flappy cloths that are obscuring a proper view of their posture.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CFT,

It is not an absolute view, it is just two man' opinions about a couple of photos, but it helps to make us think. That is all.

Stop manifesting!

[CFT]

Alright. I just hate bickering.

I don't practice qigong so I don't appreciate why holding a couple of fingers together will make a difference ...

I "liked the look" of Master Shi's stance and the tilt of his head. Questioned why the shoulders aren't level, which implies a degree of lean.

Master Hon looked more centred/upright, but his head looks slightly more tilted back. The picture is taken at a different elevation, and it looks like he is sitting in a narrower yet deeper stance so looks more awkward.

Since this is all about qigong rather than martial application I can't see why anything is questionable. Anyway, just an "aesthetic" critique which means absolutely nothing, but still interested in the dialogue.

[extrajoseph]

Hi CFT,

I was going to say something funny, but never mind. Good that you join in.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott,

There is no perfect stance or form but there is a concept called "wuwei' and "youwei", and it depends on you which path you want to follow.

I agree with you, my 40 years of experience doesn't amount to much, except it taught me "wuwei" is the way to go, but again I could be wrong and wasted my 40 years.

What about you?

Well....that is my underlying point I guess, wu wei is the way to go! While I agree that there is a certain basic form that it is a benefit to follow, I believe one's inner, mental, state is the true determining factor, NOT a person's physical performance, within reason.

I have seen forms that are poorly performed in their execution, but done with an inner spirit that has demonstrated the inherent uselessness of blindly adhering too strictly to form. I have also seen precise executions of form that are inherently empty from a "spirit of the form" sense.

Let's say that presentation and presence is WAY more important than precise execution. I will take the spirit over performance any day of the week and I believe that demonstrates a comprehensive understanding and application of the principle of wu wei

The above, and don't make lasting judgments based upon a photo that is nothing but a snap shot of a moment in time. Photos cannot accurately capture a person's character or their ability to move smoothly. It is a shadow of an appearance at best!

[taai gihk yahn]

[

I don't practice qigong so I don't appreciate why holding a couple of fingers together will make a difference ...

well, it's a good question, and part of why I asked the question in the first place!

why would holding a couple of fingers make a difference, indeed?

there are two ways of looking at it, in general: specific to the individual and in a general sense;

in regards to the individual, we have seen one example here where extrajoseph tried the "experiment" and found that his "qi" was blocked (whatever that may mean, of course); alternately, in my personal experience, I have found that when I make the connection between the fingers, I feel that it increases the subjective sense of connection between the outstretched hand and the rear hand which is touching the Lung source point; as such, when I "draw" back a bit more on the rear hand, I feel the balance of tension from one side to another increase (when I say tension I mean in the sense of pulling a rubber band), getting more of a "stretch" (this is a bit of an oversimplification, but just want to keep it simple); when I separate the fingers of the lead hand, I don't feel that balanced tension go beyond the wrist of the lead hand, and therefore I do not feel the overall connection from side to side in the same way (specifically via Lung & Large Intestine sinews); so, we have two individuals with significant qigong experience having two different takes on it;

now, the question is, who is right and who is wrong? in other words, can one draw a general conclusion in terms of which way is intrinsically better? according to extraJ, it seems, because he felt his "qi" blocked by connecting the fingers, doing it that way is incorrect (of course, he may be right about that, but then he would need to also present some sort of evidence to support his claim - for example, utilizing TCM / meridian / yi jing or some similar "theory" to support why the fingers ought not to connect); my perspective is that while I prefer doing it with the fingers closed, I don't think it is necessarily right as opposed to not connecting the fingers - it's just different, in that one will get different results; again, I feel what I feel to be efficacious, in terms of the effect I have found to be best for myself;

Both of these masters, if they are worth their salt, would not worry about what we have said about them at all, they would just have a smile on their face, and go on with their practice.

I agree! that is, IMPE, the true measure of the depth of anyone's practice; judging relative capacity from a photograph is, as I originally pointed out and which Scott then enlarged upon, a dicey business at best; indeed, when I posted the picture of Sat, it was not to demonstrate relative superiority, it was to illustrate a differential in terms of the finger position - the whole idea of comparing photos and trying to emulate the postures accordingly is something I personally would not advocate, nor would comparing whose kung fu is deeper, etc.; now, I have known Sat for 15 years, and I personally have not doubts about the authenticity and correctness of his practice, because of how it manifests in terms of his teachings, his health, his relationship with family, etc; if indeed he regularly made "gross mistakes" in his qigong practice, his life would reflect that, which it does not; can I prove this? of course not, but it is my experience, which appears to be verified by others who have known him even longer than I and are my seniors in the school; so if I take issue w/extraJ's assessment, it is based on a variety of factors, not just the "evidence" of one photograph (for example, I have seen Sat respond with "a smile on his face and just go about his practice" when he has been directly challenged by others); that being said, at the same time I would not say that he looks better than Master Shi either - Master Shi appears to be coming from a different tradition / perspective, but I cannot imagine that if he were "incorrect" in his own practice that he would be considered as highly as he doubtlessly is by those who study with him;
now, I know that extraJ is of the opinion that my level is so inferior to his that productive communication with me on this topic is not possible - so I don't expect that he will agree with my perspective here, which is fine, of course; however, in the interests of maintaining civil discourse and keeping this thread on topic, I hope that he will at least refrain from referring to me as a "moron", or implying that I am a charlatan because I refer to acupuncture charts to qualify my perspective, or accusing me of trying to somehow "trick" or "ambush" him as he did when I asked him for some clarification of his original comment to me; perhaps he would even reconsider his previous stance and participate in the discussion if he finds it productive to do so...

[Scott R. Brown]

Well I WAS going to refer to you as a moron myself...but due to unforeseen circumstances, the fact you actually remembered to mention me by name in your post this time, I will have to refrain from such a crass appellation (NOT appaloosa) at this time!

[extrajoseph]

OK, from now on I will refrain from calling you a moron, Richard Head.