Who are kung fu masters who don't hold back in teaching?

[MightyB]

I'm not sure anybody can hold back information, or more likely - if they claim they're holding back information they're probably lying, or they're just not that skilled. After doing martial arts for a couple of decades - you realize that there's not much variation between the different styles. Really there's only proclivities between the various historical masters. Sometimes that leads to stagnation because modern masters and students can become afraid to experiment... or experimentation is looked down upon. The only holding back that seems to happen is that some masters are rigid and don't allow flexibility with their students. This can take different forms but usually it's a variation of this thought of my style is the best and has all the answers so don't look outside it and definitely don't cross train or I'll throw you out and I have all the answers.

I have this theory that there really are only a few martial movements and these are pretty much universal. The movements can be interpreted in nearly infinite ways hence all of this thought of hidden applications or secrets. When one really explores - they become aware of these secrets which aren't really secrets - they're just discovered personal proclivities. This happens naturally over time.

To illustrate a more concrete example of this theory: One of my new favorite forms is one that I learned in the third grade from a traditional Okinawan stylist. It's Naihanchi Shodan. It's a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you'll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form... and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here's the big secret: They're all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique... which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you'll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it's like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities.

If I'm correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets.

[LaterthanNever]

"Yep. I have met kung fu master that does not hold back in teaching disregard whether his student can learn it. Because he does not want to be perceived as holding back teaching."

SteveLau. Thank you. May I ask their name? Who is this man or woman?



"If I'm correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets. "

It's SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves "Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He's only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says "Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?", I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he's learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I've gotten!"

[Orion Paximus]

It's SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves "Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He's only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says "Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?", I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he's learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I've gotten!"

You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn't feel you were ready for more.

[Orion Paximus]

It's a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you'll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form... and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here's the big secret: They're all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique... which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you'll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it's like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities.

I agree with this 100%

[LaterthanNever]

"You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn't feel you were ready for more"

Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable!

[rett2]

Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable!

I'm enjoying this thread as it is, but would just like to add something. A teacher who "holds back" or is perceived as holding back can still be "worth his/her salt" IMO. Whether a teacher is good or questionable does not correlate with being perceived as "holding back" or not. 2¢

[MightyB]

Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are "worth their salt" vs. those who are uh...questionable!

Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone's worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.

[Jimbo]

Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone's worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.

Good advice.

However, I'd like to add that sometimes how good a teacher's skills are and how well he moves isn't always a good indicator of how good a teacher he is.

I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable.

AFAIK, there were only 3 students of this HG teacher who received 'the real stuff', my own Mantis teacher being the last and youngest. These three students also had a high level of natural talent for MA. All his other students that I saw or knew of (and he had taught a LOT of students over the years) were literally awful. Simply put, he didn't care about these other students; he took their money and gave them a bunch of forms that he taught them half-@ssed and wrong. This HG teacher also had character issues, but I won't go into that here.

So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher's students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they're at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they're doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.

Oddly enough, a friend of mine (who had already been a CMA teacher himself for many years) once told me he left a certain large BJJ school because the teacher held back and only shared the fine points with students who were also from Brazil. He compared it to the way some older Chinese sifu only taught the 'real' stuff to Chinese students. This friend ended up switching to another BJJ school where that wasn't an issue.

[MightyB]

So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher's students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they're at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they're doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.

This is gold. You're right - but also, you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of sh**y students (no athletic ability, lack of attention span, no tolerance for pain, etc.), so it's hard to tell.

[YouKnowWho]

how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets.

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?

A: Dear master! Last night I sparred with a MMA guy in local MMA gym. When I did ..., he countered with ... I didn't know how to deal with his counter.
B: You can try .... and ...

I had used this trick to squeeze out every single bit of "secret" from my teacher. Sometime I even "faked" the sparring experience. I just wanted to hear his solution if he was in that situation. How can any teacher hide any secret if his students try to solve problem by using his teaching material? If a teacher didn't want his student to lose in sparring so he might lose face, he had to share his personal secret.

[Orion Paximus]

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?

This is the truth. And sometimes the student is the one holding the paper, unsure of why his view is blocked. Don't get in your own way. Listen, learn, and practice.

[MightyB]

The secret is like a thin paper, it blocks your view. after you make a hole through it, you can see everything. The question is how long will it take you to make a hole through that thin paper?

A: Dear master! Last night I sparred with a MMA guy in local MMA gym. When I did ..., he countered with ... I didn't know how to deal with his counter.
B: You can try .... and ...

I had used this trick to squeeze out every single bit of "secret" from my teacher. Sometime I even "faked" the sparring experience. I just wanted to hear his solution if he was in that situation. How can any teacher hide any secret if his students try to solve problem by using his teaching material? If a teacher didn't want his student to lose in sparring so he might lose face, he had to share his personal secret.

I absolutely love this!!!

[LaterthanNever]

Gentlemen/Ladies,

"I'm enjoying this thread as it is, but would just like to add something. A teacher who "holds back" or is perceived as holding back can still be "worth his/her salt" IMO. Whether a teacher is good or questionable does not correlate with being perceived as "holding back" or not. 2¢"

Absolutely! For the record..I'm not talking about a sifu/master/grandmaster who has promoted many dedicated students to sifu level over the years and decides to save the "remaining 10%" for a couple of specific and worthy students who have gone over and beyond the call of duty and is given the "inner chamber" secrets. For instance, if one examines the syllabus for for 7* mantis..there are, I believe 114 forms ( ) and the syllabus states something to the effect that "the remaining 8 forms are reserved for the inheritor of the system". That is fundamentally different to what I am asking.

MightyB,

"Well, it's considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online."

According to whom? The kung fu community is so split, that every time a certain WC master so much as passes wind, it's all over the internet 10 minutes later. And yet? I ask for THE OPPOSITE constructive discussion (ie: who are high level masters who are willing to teach what they know in it's entirely provided one is dedicated" and all of a sudden it's a taboo topic?

"There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes. "

Again..that wasn't the purpose of the thread. It's generally a lot easier to look at the negative about a topic before one chooses to look at the positive.

Jimbo,

"I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable."

Would you mind listing his/her name? TY Sir.


YouknowWho

"This is the truth. And sometimes the student is the one holding the paper, unsure of why his view is blocked. Don't get in your own way. Listen, learn, and practice."

Absolutely! And sometimes it's *not*. I would obviously consider you Master Wang among the penulimate instructors who are the opposite of the "hold back" ideology. That's some syllabus you've got there! Thank you for your dedication and comittment to CMA.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,

"I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I'd never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I'd ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher's kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable."

Would you mind listing his/her name? TY Sir.

This footage of him was from the early 1980s or so. I believe he's well into his 70s now. The last time I saw him in person was 25 years ago, when I left Taiwan. In more recent vids I've seen of him, he's gained a lot of weight and obviously due to his age has slowed down a lot. Apparently an American student of his posted this old video; AFAIK, Chang/Zhang still lives in Taiwan. This student must have met him in Taiwan well after I left, because when I knew Chang/Zhang, his students were almost all Taiwanese/Chinese, and no Westerners that I knew of.

[mickey]

This footage of him was from the early 1980s or so. I believe he's well into his 70s now. The last time I saw him in person was 25 years ago, when I left Taiwan. In more recent vids I've seen of him, he's gained a lot of weight and obviously due to his age has slowed down a lot. Apparently an American student of his posted this old video; AFAIK, Chang/Zhang still lives in Taiwan. This student must have met him in Taiwan well after I left, because when I knew Chang/Zhang, his students were almost all Taiwanese/Chinese, and no Westerners that I knew of.

Greetings Gentlemen,

What is most interesting about the form that master is doing is that one can see the influence of Hua To's Five Animal Frolics.

mickey