Po Pai is it a strike or pushing

[BPWT]

We have a different tactical objective in mind, a difference in execution to LT lineage.

Okay, that's interesting. What is the tactical objective? (I mean in terms of the range between two people when the way to the target is free/clear)

We use a 'stepping into the opponent's stance' to aid the execution of the hit - the idea is to a) allow us to hit with as greater power (using the step and the adduction between the knees to add to the power from the arms), b) to displace the opponent (using the step to affect his balance/stance structure).

Of course, it is impossible to step into the guys stance at every strike, but ultimately we should aim for this sooner or later (or that should be, sooner rather than later )

[Yoshiyahu]

Very good Point. I do agree with your analogy concerning more power when your opponent is already off balance or his attacking line is veered off from your centerline. Good Points~

Push and pull are two different energies. They should choose one and do it fully.

It may be fine if you are pulling slightly to change the opponent's facing before applying po-pai. But pulling them into yourself and then trying to push them back is not only useless, but it increases the resistance to your po-pai since their body weight is coming into you.

Po-pai is best used when you have already affected their facing and balance so there is less resistance and your po-pai will be more powerful. Look at the po-pai section of the dummy set. Each one is preceded by an action to change their facing and affect their balance first.

As for pulling actions, if you're going to pull them past you, do it. Why suddenly change energy and push back into them? At least turn and po-pai from the side, where they are weak. They are strong from the front, especially if that's the direction you're pulling them.

[k gledhill]

Okay, that's interesting. What is the tactical objective? (I mean in terms of the range between two people when the way to the target is free/clear)

We use a 'stepping into the opponent's stance' to aid the execution of the hit - the idea is to a) allow us to hit with as greater power (using the step and the adduction between the knees to add to the power from the arms), b) to displace the opponent (using the step to affect his balance/stance structure).

Of course, it is impossible to step into the guys stance at every strike, but ultimately we should aim for this sooner or later (or that should be, sooner rather than later )

We try to cut into opponents actions, not into the "pocket" . We step and pivot and combine to develop force to strike but we use the opponents actions to work off.
One major reason rotating strikers give guys trouble is simply that they go into the "pocket" rather than ...alternate ways.
Imagine attacking a man armed with 2 knives always, would you go into his center ?
A boxer , his center ?

[BPWT]

We try to cut into opponents actions, not into the "pocket" . We step and pivot and combine to develop force to strike but we use the opponents actions to work off. One major reason rotating strikers give guys trouble is simply that they go into the "pocket" rather than ...alternate ways.

Thanks! I think I understand what you are saying about cutting into actions and I think we are using something like this when we can't step into a stance. So maybe not too different - and not too similar either

Imagine attacking a man armed with 2 knives always, would you go into his center?

Tricky question. Probably I wouldn't, unless I somehow had complete control of both of his arms (unlikely if he has knives). But this scenario is kinda ruined by the presence of those knives.

If you hold out your arm in a fist and I walk onto it, I won't really hurt myself (other than my pride ), but if you hold out a knife (or two knives) and I walk onto one of them... ouch. It takes very little 'effort' to slice or stab someone, as their movements can often do it for you. So no, against knives the whole game kinda changes.

To give a more extreme example, the only footwork that might work against someone with a projective taser gun is... running... in a zig-zag fashion... while ducking... and praying. ) If you pull one of those on me, I am not thinking about stepping into your stance.

A boxer, his center?

Another tricky question! In a ring, gloved up, playing by boxing rules? No, I wouldn't.

In a self defense situation? Well, I would really not want to be playing with a boxer at the boxing range for say, a straight right. So I would be trying to close the distance. Of course, stepping into someone's stance can be done from the front, the side (even the back, I guess) all with the aim of taking/controlling the center.

So yes, in this case I would be trying this. 'Don't box the boxer' as the saying goes.

What I was asking, really, about the lap sau and chi sau drills I saw in your video clips, is why you keep the striking distance but don't close it further when you have control of the center? It looked, to me, a bit like the same range was always kept.

But if that is just the nature of the way you do those drills, then that is cool - it is the way you do it. I was just curious.

[k gledhill]

Thanks! I think I understand what you are saying about cutting into actions and I think we are using something like this when we can't step into a stance. So maybe not too different - and not too similar either



Tricky question. Probably I wouldn't, unless I somehow had complete control of both of his arms (unlikely if he has knives). But this scenario is kinda ruined by the presence of those knives.

If you hold out your arm in a fist and I walk onto it, I won't really hurt myself (other than my pride ), but if you hold out a knife (or two knives) and I walk onto one of them... ouch. It takes very little 'effort' to slice or stab someone, as their movements can often do it for you. So no, against knives the whole game kinda changes.

To give a more extreme example, the only footwork that might work against someone with a projective taser gun is... running... in a zig-zag fashion... while ducking... and praying. ) If you pull one of those on me, I am not thinking about stepping into your stance.


Another tricky question! In a ring, gloved up, playing by boxing rules? No, I wouldn't.

In a self defense situation? Well, I would really not want to be playing with a boxer at the boxing range for say, a straight right. So I would be trying to close the distance. Of course, stepping into someone's stance can be done from the front, the side (even the back, I guess) all with the aim of taking/controlling the center.

So yes, in this case I would be trying this. 'Don't box the boxer' as the saying goes.

What I was asking, really, about the lap sau and chi sau drills I saw in your video clips, is why you keep the striking distance but don't close it further when you have control of the center? It looked, to me, a bit like the same range was always kept.

But if that is just the nature of the way you do those drills, then that is cool - it is the way you do it. I was just curious.

We dont treat chi-sao as a battle ground, so if you see a pause at a certain distance unlike your own ideas, it may be simply be to 'cut off' and start over.
Laap sao drills are to condition elbows, and the various actions and reactions possible within a modular isolation of this exchange sequence one may face at speeds while fighting. Added later to gor sao they can involve anything, stepping in or angling out, etc...random use, relying on thoughtless responses.

[BPWT]

Okay, thanks for explaining.

Our lap sau in WT is a little different, but we share some of the same teaching progression, I think.

Lap sau with isolated sequences [to work various responses and also to understand concepts] leading on to gor sau [to play those responses in a random way as needed and to try and get the concepts out in a more live setting].

[k gledhill]

Laap sao has many variations within the 'drill' of attack and counters with angles etc....many just seem to grab n hit then swap roles and wait to be grabbed and hit...There is a lot of repetition to condition the punching elbows angles, and try to stay relaxed at high speeds, not freezing, etc...

[BPWT]

Indeed.

I was taught that the drill is to train the punching elbow, the reaction of bong to pressure (plus using bong to prevent the line of attack from opening up), to check we have forward pressure, to check our wu sau, etc, etc. Lots happening just within the basic sequence.

But we can work pretty much any exchange into the lap sau drill, so often we use it as a platform to start things from. I like it as it is somewhere in between training from no contact (no bridge) and training with an established bridge with both hands (poon sau). And in lap sau it is easy to flow between various aspects of all of these bridging options.

But sorry all, I have derailed the talk of Po Pai

[Yoshiyahu]

If your opponent is against the wall trying to move forward...Po Pai Push is very useful!

[bennyvt]

i was always taught it was for range or to push the guy into something dangerous, ie wsl pushing the guy off the roof.

[k gledhill]

I have used po pai a lot in fighting, it's a sophisticated shove ; ) inch punch force x 2

[wingchunIan]

I have used po pai a lot in fighting, it's a sophisticated shove ; ) inch punch force x 2

no surprise you have a very different understanding of inch punch force than I do. In the way that I have been taught when the opponent is struck the aim should be to strike to the jic seen and send them straight down not push them away.

[k gledhill]

no surprise you have a very different understanding of inch punch force than I do. In the way that I have been taught when the opponent is struck the aim should be to strike to the jic seen and send them straight down not push them away.

Fights I have start in all kinds of ways...when I get a good punch a guy will normally slide on his ass 6-7 ft back...some I hit and they roll with it so I shove them into range again or kick...some I start by shoving them out of my face...varies, fighting. At least my experiences, no 2 the same.
Once I hit a guy starting outside a nightclub, he instinctively dropped his head so I hit him flush on the forehead and he just stood there ( drunk ? drugs ), before he could recover ,I shoved him down a flight of stairs..he ended being knicked by a policeman who walked into the fight as we got to the bottom of the stairs...

[Yoshiyahu]

i was always taught it was for range or to push the guy into something dangerous, ie wsl pushing the guy off the roof.

Good Point i absolutely agree!

[wingchunIan]

Fights I have start in all kinds of ways...when I get a good punch a guy will normally slide on his ass 6-7 ft back..

Wow! In all my years of witnessing ugly scenes at footie, bar brawls; my own altercations; and watching MT, MMA, boxing etc I've never seen anyone fly back 6-7ft when hit apart from a dodgy demo on you tube where the guy being hit is holding a telephone book on his chest, and pushing techniques such as teep in MT and sidekicks in karate / tkd tournaments.