Tradional technique vs. tournament technique

[YouKnowWho]

If we compare the traditional technique "front cut (Osoto Gari)" and the tournament (modified) technique "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)", we can see a big difference there.

1. foot placement (next to your opponent leading foot vs. infront and away from his leading foot),
2. attacking angle (push your opponent back vs. rotate him sideway),
3. body angle (your body is vertical vs. your body lean 45 degree forward)
4. attacking leg (you attack your opponent's front leg vs. you attack his back leg).
5. leg force (you kick your leg back vs. you sink your foot down).
6. Your opponent's knee (you don't deal with your opponent's knee vs. you bend his knee sideway).
7. ...

It's not hard to see that the traditional technique will only work against beginners. The tournament (modified) technique can be used to against a strong resisted opponent.

Traditional "front cut (Osoto Gari)":

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/anim.../osotogari.htm

Tournament "1/2 front cut 1/2 leg block (1/2 Osoto Gari 1/2 Ashi Guruma)":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcA45dsJh2w

Here is the original Khadaji's article "Classical Osotogari Doesn't Work!":

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0822...ri-doesnt-work

Here is the counter article by Steve Cunningham "Classical Osotogari Does Work!":

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0823...eve-cunningham

- Which one's opinion do you agree with, Khadaji or Steve Cunningham?
- Why the traditional technique is different from the tournament technique?
- Is there any value to maintain the traditional training method?
- Does the "striking art" also have the similiar issue?

What's your thought?

[HmorenoM]

- Why the traditional technique is different from the tournament technique?
- Is there any value to maintain the traditional training method?
- Does the "striking art" also have the similiar issue?
What's your thought?

1) Tournament combat: There are rules, you basically "fight" for winning
Traditional/Real combat: There are no rules, no categories... you "fight" for surviving

2) IMO, there is... but i think we have to ask this to ourselves. What are we training for? a tournament? training for life? training for protect ourselves? I think that's the answer for the "traditional technique vs tournament technique"

3) IMO it does... for example, Sanda and TCMA combats.... 1 is for tournament, the other one is quite much deeper

[LaRoux]

1) Tournament combat: There are rules, you basically "fight" for winning
Traditional/Real combat: There are no rules, no categories... you "fight" for surviving

Tournament combat: generally works against full on resisting opponent.

Traditional/Real combat: generally doesn't work against full on resisting opponent because it is "too deadly" to be trained for real.

Sanda and TCMA combats.... 1 is for tournament, the other one is quite much deeper

One works and one doesn't work so well.

[Vash]

I like Mr. Cunningham's quote from the end of the article; "You ... play to win." He is in the context of the article referring to the use of judo technique which is inefficient since such use is necessitated by the rules.

Also, his distinctions between tactics used when under time limit and when not I think make a good point; situation dictates the 'rules.'

For the record, I've had to use a throw in a self defense situation; I nailed the traditional version of Osoto Gari.

[YouKnowWho]

Your throw may always work against beginners. In order to make your throw work against non-beginner, you will need to move yourself to the next level. After you have moved to the next level, should you still use your throw that you have learned in your beginner level training?

For example, if you apply a "hip throw", when you spin, your opponent can spin with you and drag you down to the ground. In your middle (or advance) level of training, you have replaced all your body spin by a 90 degree sharp turn. Should you still keep the word "spin" in your dictionary, or should you totally remove that word from your dictionary?

One of my senior SC brothers believes we should preserve the traditional method so we all know where did we come from. I'm more in favor of to discard the traditional method and replaced with the evolved method.

[Yum Cha]

Tournament combat: generally works against full on resisting opponent.

Traditional/Real combat: generally doesn't work against full on resisting opponent because it is "too deadly" to be trained for real.

One works and one doesn't work so well.

Now, my buddies in the sandpit would dispute that LaRoux, they are fighting a traditional and very real kind of combat, and they are only mildly amused by my stories of hand-to-hand and <giggle> tournaments!

[PalmStriker]

Now, my buddies in the sandpit would dispute that LaRoux, they are fighting a traditional and very real kind of combat, and they are only mildly amused by my stories of hand-to-hand and <giggle> tournaments!

ShortsSports with mittens, on padding.

[Yum Cha]

ShortsSports with mittens, on padding.

I asked a particularly experienced friend of mine (3 tours) if he ever had any hand-to-hand training (Drake, you still around?). He said he was taught one move he used, which was grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back.
He used it once in a situation where there were several 'maybe bad' guys all rounded up and they were having a bit of a chat when one grabbed for his sidearm, in a suicide holster on his chest. When he did it it tore the guys hand in half, nearly down to the wrist.

I wonder if that qualifies as an effective 'real combat' technique, bit you'd get disqualified if you tried it in a tournament. Just sayin...

[MasterKiller]

If we fight for money, I stop punching when you ask. If we fight for honor, I stop punching when I feel like it.--Rickson Gracie

[David Jamieson]

If we fight for money, I stop punching when you ask. If we fight for honor, I stop punching when I feel like it.--Rickson Gracie

Gotta love that gracie egotude of infalibilty. lol

[Orion Paximus]

Gotta love that gracie egotude of infalibilty. lol

lol I was gonna say "A Gracie would have to throw a punch before they could stop throwing punches"

[SevenStar]

lol I was gonna say "A Gracie would have to throw a punch before they could stop throwing punches"

that quote was by rickson. he's not a striker, but has no problems throwing punches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_6tlkeQ8X8

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/24...h-fightht-ever

[GeneChing]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, the difference between street technique and tournament technique is in

- street, you are dealing with average Joe.
- tournament, you are dealing with the best of the best.

Even if your technique may work against average Joe, it make need some modification to make it to work on somone of your own level. Someone may say that your modification is just some "special trick". To me, if a technique can only work on average Joe and won't work on a strong resisted opponent, your techenique is still not there yet.

[RickMatz]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

That is the topic of this book, classical technique, strategy and mindset vs scoring points in a tournament. It's very good reading.

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