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Thread: Green Dragon Studios

  1. #841
    Quote Originally Posted by IronWeasel View Post
    No, My name's Mike.

    I have never met Steve, although we have corresponded via e-mail, and trained with some of the same people.
    Mike, I was reading through the archives a couple of days ago and I believe it was you that stated you learned 3 different snake turns over exercises.
    I know the one Allen shows on his video. And the one Hamp calls arm grabs. Its slightly different.

    If I have the poster correct, could you tell/ describe the versions you learned please.

  2. #842

    Perspective from the 80’s, and later

    I started reading this thread a few years back, saw that it died off, glad it's been kinda/sorta revived.
    My own experience with Green Dragon Studios – I had a subscription to IKF back in the 80's, saw the first GD ads, saw them get high ratings for their vids, even asked a couple people if they'd go in on the Stone Warrior program with me ($100, in mid-80's dollars, which was no joke), then later ordered from them in the 90's. GD appealed to that side of me that many of us can identify with, what I think of as 'Saturday Shaolin Syndrome,' the belief that some wacky exercise that you saw in a weekend kungfu movie, usually involving sand, water, or candles, will make you an invincible buttkick machine, much faster than a weight set and power rack.
    Re my order – It was literally a year and a half late (they said their tech had been damaged by lightning), and when it arrived wasn't what I'd asked for, and there was nothing extra added in for the inconvenience. That sucked, but as a poster here noted, you were literally nothing to them until you'd 'proved yourself,' not a real great business model for a retail operation.
    Coming from a Wing Chun background, I'd wanted to see their complete butterfly swords video. What arrived was some basic form that could be done with the swords or with sai, I found it lacking in a lot of basic details, such as the technique for reversing the weapon, and John Allen's sonorous voice-over annoying. Really, I learned more that could be applied with those two weapons in my first arnis lesson.
    A few observations on GD, from the persective of 30+ years. I've been a professional fitness trainer for going on 25 years, and started Wing Chun at age 16, and received my Master's in Traditional Chinese Medicine in '01 and have practiced that professionally since as well.
    GD is all about forms. In the 'intro tape,' Allen says, and barks and bellows into the camera, that forms will imprint reflexes into the body. “If there had been a better way to train, they would have come up with it. YOU – do not have to make the mistake of not doing forms!” Show of hands, who remembers this? One poster on this thread, page 12 I think, upbraided a commenter for not having done long hard work on forms, and so, how could he say that they're no good? And Iron Tiger renewed the claim that forms 'put reflexes into the body.'

    It's an old, tired argument, but here's my take – We can say it's no good, because this principle is not used for any other sport, especially a combative one.
    Man, when I first heard about forms giving you reflexes, I was a skinny geeky weak teen, extremely uncomfortable in regular jock culture. I would have looooved it if I could go down in my basement, practiced alone, and come out with 'reflexes' to defeat attacks. Of course, by that logic, if tennis was my game I could also go down in my basement, swing a raquet (no ball needed!) in a highly stylized manner, over and over, and come out and deal with balls hit at all speeds and from all directions. Nobody even tries to punch your face in tennis! Of course, if you said that you were going to devote a significant portion of training time to doing stylized moves with no ball, you'd be roundly seen as crazy.
    If 'forms' put reflexes into the body, it should work with any reactive sportl. It doesn't, and I don't have to spend 5 years with a baseball glove on my hand, scooping up imaginary grounders, to prove it.
    Does anybody go for this, anymore?
    You can sell forms, especially if you claim that you're the only one that has the good ones.
    We now live in the world that GD claimed to want.
    If you remember the old GD ads and articles and whatnot, they rode the 'Chinese MMA' exploits of Chang Dong-Shen like a rented mule. 'Yeah, you modern-day sissies, with your jiveass tournaments, Chang went down to Nanking and took on all comers. We would be doing the same, but now it's all touch fighting..' It's fine to sneer at 'tournament fighters,' but they based their own street cred on Chang's tournament(s).
    Of course, now with MMA, you have the perfect vehicle to test-drive your Suai Chiao + traditional kung fu. One poster here has posited that if he were alive, Chang would enter and easily win. Well...
    It's important to remember, that GD showed by their actions that they wanted two things very badly – recognition, and money. They got magazine columns, loudly complained about getting jobbed at tournaments, loudly complained when they lost the columns, and took out very large ads. For the time, their vids were hella expensive, and you were told that you needed a bunch of them. These guys were not hermetic recluses, or Ark Wong still charging what he charged 50 years ago. Neither of these is a bad thing, imo. But -
    You know what would really get the respect and $ rolling in, what worked for this little-known group called the Gracie Family? Public competition against different styles. Chang's dead though, ...man, if only he had some really close students, adopted sons, even, who'd faithfully trained in his way and could show it to the world. They'd done the dynamic tension work, and forms thousands of times, and they'll show these modern-day clowns with their free weights and Thai pads what's what! (crickets.) For guys 'not interested in sports trophies,' GD was plenty glad to glom on to Chang's MMA experience, and use that as a badge of authenticity. Since that competition wasn't for revenge or war, what was that Nanking tournament if not a sports competition?
    Let's get real here. If GD entered a fighter who'd trained in say, White Crane, and strengthened with Stone Warrior, and he cleaned house in the Octagon, everybody would be training White Crane later that week. This fine ancient tradition would be saved! Gene Chicoine goes in, absorbs multiple strikes without blinking thanks to Iron Vest, who wouldn't start Iron Vest, even though it takes years?
    Taking out a full-page ad in IKF and other publications, “The Real Old School Challenges the New Pretenders,” with a pic of Allen wearing one of his little brother's t-shirts and scowling..Hell yes, I'd watch that. Everyone would.
    If Chang's methods worked then, they should work now, and there are people who've pretty much dedicated their lives to training His Way. If they started winning fights, either with MMA or having, say a boxer using circular techniques, 'much more effective than straight-line techniques' beating the crap out of Andre Ward, well, Traditional CMA would blow up like the Hindenberg. They'd show that their work was worth all the time put in on forms and stances, and have a whole new generation keeping their ideas alive.

    Yes, yes, we know that GD 'only keeps 1 out of 100 students.' Well, they got a few students now, who are presumably down with the GD way. Let them run free! If they 'don't fight like tournament fighters,' but presumably can still fight, wouldn't this be a huge advantage? If they can't fight in tournaments, and Chicoine swore he'd never teach Suia Chiao for 'sporting purposes,' for what are they training to fight? The bugs from 'Starship Troopers?' It's not like all Chang's matches were to the death.
    “In 1933, at the age of 25, Grandmaster Ch'ang entered the fifth national Kua Shu Elimination Tournament in Nanking. This no holds barred competition involved over 1,000 participants and included masters in all major styles from all over China battling each other of supremacy in all-out combat.” Well, 'all-out” is kind of vague, but what's the diff between this and MMA, a.k.a. A sporting event?
    Judo is a throwing and grappling style that started as jacketed wrestling, and it a (somewhat surprisingly) big part of MMA now. Rhonda Rousey's certainly on a tear with it, why not Chicoine's SC? There's a big difference between the point fighting common in the 80's, and the MMA rules of no groin shots/fishhooking/eye gouges/(and now) headbutts.
    Incidentally, the whole '1 out of 100' thing is a little tired, given that that's the retention rate for most boxing gyms, or martial arts schools that require contact competition like kyokushinkai or BJJ. You know how long it takes, in a serious school, to just get a BJJ blue belt? When you stop comparing yourself to strip mall McDojos, so 1980's, this particular brag goes way down.

  3. #843

    Green Dragon Continued

    Strength training - I learned what GD sells as Stone Warrior from Sifu Charles Chi in Long Island. He called them Iron Buddha exercises, said he learned them from Kam Yuen. When I finally got my hands on the GD SW tape, it was the same stuff. I've always thought it was pretty bogus that GD said, regarding breathing, 'well, there are lots of opinions on how to breathe, so we won't address it at all.'
    I worked up to 12 reps of everything, which took about 45 minutes. According to some posters here, this makes me incapable of commenting on SW. And yet I can start with lighter weights in kettlebell, free weights, sandbags, whatever, and realize gains right off the bat.
    You can take this how you want it, but since then I've become intimately familiar with weights, with kettlebells, weighted clubs, sandbags, throwing dummies, the whole deal. My conclusion – you have to actually move force in a certain direction to get that particular strength, like for lateral strength doing a cable 'wood chop,' versus just tightening your muscles and twisting side to side as in one of the Basic Strength Exercises from GD. There is some unusual stuff out there for strength, like the items mentioned above, and I still think that the internal sets that involve specific breathing may well have a lot of value, but I have to strongly question spending the amount of time SW calls for (and some here have commented that 90 minutes may well not be enough!) when fight gyms around the country are cutting down on the more exotic, Crossfit-style conditioning in favor of just doing the **** art, bag work, pad work, partner work, all that.
    I recommend Dan John's 'Easy Strength' for an in-depth but accessible exploration of this subject.

    Having re-read the entirety of this thread, it seems obvious that the reply to hat will continue to be, well, you weren't doing it hard enough, long enough, and if you do, you'll achieve gains well beyond standard conditioning. I submit that it's incumbent on GD to produce fighters who toss their opponents around like dolls, a la Valery Federenko, before we're obliged to believe that. And vids of Federenko's lo-tech training are there for all to see on Youtube.

    Don't have a big dismount, except I'd like to hear what the GD seniors say when they're asked, in all seriousness, why they're not tearing up the UFC.
    Oh yeah, authenticity...can't comment on a lot of the styles mentioned in this thread, but I got the GD mailer for awhile, after ordering that one tape, and Allen, on the subject of Wing Chun, said, “No matter how you slice it, Wing Chun is a hard, power-on-power style.” This is so ridiculous, I can't believe it. Anyone who's taken a single WC class would know better, it's all about re-directing energy, and if you try to do it like Shotokan or something, of course you'll look like you're doing the Robot, and your stuff won't work. Hearing this bosh, from a guy who frequently spoke, and yelled and hollered, that he knew more about CMA than you or anyone else, was a major red flag.

  4. #844
    Hi CatBrother. Please add more. I do have one comment regarding Wing Chun. I don't have any tape Allen states WC is power on power. So I will take your word for it. But, based on some recent WC videos I posted in the WC sub forum. Those guys were pretty much power on power. Did not see a lot of that so called redirecting, tans and paks. I guess they did not do their chi sao practice? Nope, what I saw was guys using their guard to control the center line. The better ones pivoted to face. Some got ran backwards. I was thinking, sidestep.

    All in all what I did see was in my opinion guys using their art against karate and doing rather well. I was impressed. Who ever taught them understood how to fight and did not waste time with things that may not work as directed in WC. But, Ive never taken a WC lesson so, take that with a grain of salt. I have done my best to take guys heads off and same to me. Again, I was impressed. But, it look mainly power on power. Beating the other guy to the punch. That guard slows the action down much of the time. Hitting more. Forward advance whenever possible. WC running backward loos to be not a good idea. So either Allen is correct regarding his observations of WC or these players were bad WC guys because they kept it basic, brutal and in your face. It looked a power art to me. Maybe that's how it should be done?

    If so, then what is the other stuff for? Pre fight set ups? Over aggressive handshakes? Why did they not use the other stuff? Or did I just not understand what I saw because I never actually learn it?

    Also, do you recall the video Allen stated WC is a power art?

    I am actually enjoying Allens DT sets. Im no forms man. Never was. You can check my best weight lifts in Bawangs thread. Nothing great.

    Just a thought, I wonder if Dale does STO and such still. Im sure he learned it. And his thoughts on the benefits of that or other exercises.

    Also, can you tell me more about Iron Buddha exercises, from Kam Yuen. It looks like Allen may have combined individual exercise sequences ( like STO ) into one long set. Which is fine. I don't see why he could not do so? He would not be the first to create a set. And it is not a fighting form per say.

    Thanks.
    Billy

  5. #845
    Greetings and Welcome to the forum CatBrother,

    What you write about Green Dragon is a challenge facing A LOT of kung fu schools and it has been facing them for decades in this country and much longer, going all the way back to China.

    One Green Dragon article you may have missed wrote about how they trained powerlifting. They were and probably still are about strength training.

    The connection between Kam Yuen and Stone Warrior is an interesting one. I would like to hear more about this as well.

    mickey

  6. #846
    My understanding is Allens school did have a weight room. Probably a nice one. Allen himself was a Olympic style weightlifter in his youth. He stated on one of the Q&A's I believe that if a student was real weak, woman especially he might have them do a few months of weights and then to focus more on the DT/breathing sets. Of course he said anyone can use the weights but he felt the time would be better spent on the dt sets, if I recall correctly.

  7. #847
    Now, the better illustrate my question id Allen was so wrong.

    Where was this stuff in those fights? Or is that stuff you can only do if you preempt? Other guy is not ready at all? That's what I think! Its like Kenpo. For fighting a match, good luck with this stuff below. You can try.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSqNRagw0NE

    So why does he do none of this? Why is he POWER fighting? Is his wing chun bad or is Allen correct and fighting wing chun is a power art?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU8B6eNm2zs

  8. #848
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    Every MA is a power art, to think otherwise is just silly.
    HOW you apply that power is what makes a MA distinct from another.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  9. #849
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    I learned from Shifu Gene Chicoine not Shifu John Allen.

    Shifu Chicoine and Allen had a serious falling out, hence you do not see Allen associated with the ISCA any longer.

    No idea what Allen teaches, but for the record I never trained with him or his material other than purchasing some tapes that were labelled as South Mantis and it was most definitely not South Mantis.
    Dr. Dale Dugas
    Hakka Mantis
    Integrated Eskrima
    Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Sanders

    All for Use
    Nothing for Show

  10. #850
    Well I hope CatBrother sticks around. He makes good arguments. I asked a friend who also has Allens Q&A if he recalled Allen stating WC was a power art. He did not so probably not on any of the tapes we have of him. He said Allen mentioned he believed WC was not fully taught to Yimm Wing Chun. The lady who taught here did not complete the training for whatever reason? Maybe one had to leave the area? He Allen thought it was a basic art . Only 3 sets. I think that actually varies depending on the linage. He may be referencing Yip Man linage? I think that WC may come from White Crane so perhaps Yimm was learning white crane and it got cut short? I really do not know. Does anyone? He also said Isshin Ryu was a system with only 8 forms. Not including the weapons forms. A system I did study.

    Anyway, CatBrother. Nice posts. I liked them. Makes people think and question.

    Sanjuro_Ronin, I tend to agree with you. I've seen vids of Tai Chi guys that get real hard. It hard for someone from my back ground to see the softness that may still be there.

    Dale, thanks. Do you still include those tension sets and exercises in your training? If so, what benefits do you believe you receive? Allan states in 9 Powers after a month of STO a person should be able to break a single block. At 2 months, 2 blocks. At 3 , 3 blocks. I'm sure there comes at time that no longer grows equally.
    Personally, aside from maybe a straight down shot with the palm heel, I'd skip trying any other kind of hand formations. No way Im slapping. Not with out training the hand.

  11. #851

    Weights and GD

    Hello, all, thanks for the very friendly welcome.*
    re Kam Yuen - All I can say is that Sifu Chi said that that's who taught him "Iron Buddha exercises,' which are identical to GD's SW, same order and everything, and Chi expressed some disbelief that anyone could get those exercises from anyone but Kam Yuen. Kam also taught him the White Lotus Palms, which I thought was interesting.*
    Regarding GD and weight training -
    Weights were mentioned in one of the mailers I got; free weights were a preference, as were lower body work (SQUATS was written like that, all caps). Master Ong was described as having strength 'like a competitive powerlifter.' OK, full marks for that.
    *But*it points out one of the problems I have with GD - layering training modality upon modality like a Dagwood Bumstead sandwich (ask your parents, kids). There're only so many hours in the day, and we've all only got so much recovery ability. Someone needs to make like that Anglican bishop who calculated how old the world was according to the Bible, and figure out how many hours a day GD students are doing forms and dynamic tension and weapons, all the stuff (presumably) on top of bag and pad work, and partner work/sparring, Snake Turns Over, AND the Iron Buddha strength set, AND the Hung Gar strength set, maybe the Snake health set...and weight training goes where?*
    * * *You can't really say "Oh yeah, we have that too," if there's no time, and no energy for anything else, and as Iron Tiger has mentioned repeatedly, they expect full, 100% tension, the whole set, and for you to come back next day and do it no matter how to' up you are from the previous day.
    * * The Crossfit-ization of sports training has led many, and at one time I was among them, to something different yet parallel to GD's training style - more and more neato-torpedo exercises, taking up more and more of your training time and energy. I've been as guilty of this as anyone, and I own my own gym crammed with both traditional free weight stuff and with exotica like clubs, bags, bands, log bars, rings, Battling Ropes, a beer keg with 100lb of water in it, yeah, I've got it all.*
    * * *I currently compete in dragon boating, have for about 8 years, and in the last couple years have been dragged (kicking and screaming) to the realization that I can deadlift 2.5 times my bodyweight and can pump myself up like an air hose, I was getting skunked in time trials, repeatedly, by guys who simply paddled more than me, were often 10+ years older (I'm 49), and weren't about to start deadlifting anytime soon.My experience has been echoed by athletes who've pursued ball-breaking 'metcon' workouts instead of just getting better at their sport, which is why it's been a truism that there are no high-level athletes doing Crossfit (as written on their main site) as their conditioning.
    Again, full marks to GD for saying 'strength is important!'; one of the many grudges I hold against my first school is sneering at weight training and telling us it would slow us down, back when I had the equivalent of a steroid cycle pumping through my veins. In the late 80's/early 90's, for those not in the sporting world at the time, it was a fairly radical thing to say that strength training would improve your sport, most sports-science 'authorities,' at least in this country, were saying just the opposite.
    In pretty much any sporting activity, strength training is essential, unless you're a physical outlier or an utter natural at the game. I'm neither, and strength training has allowed me to stay in the upper third of our little paddling group.
    The question is, how best to gain that strength, and how much time to devote doing so. Pro fighters aren't exactly twiddling their thumbs, wondering how to kill some of the vast amounts of idle time they have. The rest of us have jobs and lawns and relationships to deal with.
    A few years ago, one of the regular writers on the fitness/bodybuilding site Tnation (Chad Waterbury), who was looking to increase his visibility as a trainer of fighters, gave a list of strength standards he felt an in-shape fighter should be expected to meet. He was immediately informed by readers of just how few the current crop of UFC superstars (guys who not only train a ton but are on what we in the training biz call 'Mexican vitamins,' a ha ha ha) would meet his standards, and how much of their time and energy they'd have to devote just to improving their powerlifting, to do so. Also, many accounts of both pros and skinny Mexican amateurs who didn't look like they could whip cream with an outboard motor, but could beat you like you stole something.
    “Powerlifting is a sport, but athletes are not powerlifters” is a quote that resonated quite well with me. More strength is great, but you don't get to just add it like you're beefing up your Dungeons and Dragons character. At a certain point, the chase for strength, and there are many definitions of 'strength' indeed, takes away from pursuit of other qualities, one of those 'a tripod has three legs' things. A certain level of strength is necessary, unless your skills are out of this world, but every boxing and wrestling gym has had bodybuilders swagger in the door thinking they're gonna own the place, and slink out the same door with bruises and new humility.
    The question of 'how much strength is enough,' for any particular activity, is an ongoing debate, but we're kind of past 'more is better.' I again recommend Dan John's “Easy Strength” to martial artists and athletes of any stripe.
    So, if they GD guys had a gym, bully for them. If they put their people on a hybrid powerlifting/martial arts quality-improving program, full marks. But daily hours of dynamic tension + gym work, don't think so, you'd have to be skimping somewhere. If not, well, as the song says, we'd all love to see the plan.
    I have to strongly question, as previously noted, the strength acquired by actually rooting and moving a cable, a kettlebell, or a club laterally or at an angle, and I've done a lot of it, and tensing and rooting, and just doing it in the air. It's much the same difference as doing a form and pretending to block and counter an attack, and having your buddy put on 16 oz gloves and shin pads, and trying to put one on your nose while you block and oblique kick him low. Done a lot of that, too.
    More on the subject of 'hard wing chun' later.

  12. #852
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    paragraphs are your friends.

    What I meant to imply is that Shifu Chicoine does not teach Stone Warrior and other silliness. He said it was was bits and pieces of things from others. I tend to agree.

    I have never trained in SW nor do I see any reason to.

    tension sets are great but not the be all that many want them to be. You need to add to your resistance training and your body can only take you so far.

    I train bodyweight, weights, rubber bands, KBs, Indian Clubs and other training tools. I also train my basics.

    There are not secret sets. The secret is train and when you adapt to change it up and come at from other angles.

    And I would always pick South Mantis over Wing Chun anyday.
    Dr. Dale Dugas
    Hakka Mantis
    Integrated Eskrima
    Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Sanders

    All for Use
    Nothing for Show

  13. #853
    Hey, I might like Southern Mantis best too, if I ever got to study it. All I know about it comes from an IKF article from the early 80's, where the teacher talked about how they had many more 'powers' than Wing Chun. Seemed like a nifty style... I know I took his 'you train for short power, you get short power' injuction to heart, hitting my earliest punching bag, which happened to be 3 layers of shag carpet hung vertically in front of a brick support pillar in the basement.

    I remember on the 'compilation tape' you got with your first GD order, we saw Allen doing a 5-part sequence on the mook jong, declaring that 'this is far superior to the Wing Chun everyone is so fond of for so reason,” which was odd, because each of the five movements was (also) a Wing Chun move. He threw in some cranky 'and this is how I want it done!' bit as well, as though his students might spontaneously break into Jazz Hands for the fun of it, and I remember thinking, get invited to a lot of parties, Johnny?
    Did GD ever put out a wooden dummy tape? Not in their current catalog, but I thought I remembered one.

    As a professional practitioner of Chinese medicine, I often field critiques from people saying how they think TCM is a bunch of old-world hooey, to which I honestly reply, at least to myself, “If what I knew about TCM was what you 'know,' I'd think it was a sack of BS, too.” Wing Chun is much the same; if what you know about it is what you hear about online and Joe Rogan podcasts, I don't blame anyone for thinking there ain't much there there.

    Re Allen's critique – It was written, have no idea of what he said on video, and yes, he said that the female progenitor of the system didn't finish her instruction under Ng Mui, and thus had an incomplete system. He didn't say, somebody, somewhere, is using this stuff as a hard, power-on-power system, I don't think anyone could argue with that. People are using Tai Chi like that, and someone is somewhere grinding thru the Soft-As-Clouds Fist as taught at the Fluffy Bunny Monastery in Honan.
    Allen was claiming that's how the style was designed, which is rubbish. The blocks flat-out don't work ********-hard unless you're a good deal stronger than your opponent. The tan sao is enough to re-direct energy, it can't stop it. Ditto the lan sao (which I've seen written as larp sao, also). If you're not a gorilla, you can't grab an arm travelling the other way and pull it whilst punching, lop sao. Even at my first, sub-standard school, we had this beaten into our heads from day 1.
    On the dummy, if you're doing WC, you're not supposed to be battering the arms, but sliding around them. I was told that they represented the arms of someone too big/strong to move, YOU had to do the moving.

    It's like an epee – long, stiff, no edge, just a point, like a foil on steroids. Can be a dangerous weapon, if you hit someone in the eye or something, but you ain't gonna chop off an arm with it.
    Allen's critique was like hearing a guy say – “I know all about fencing. My master was a great fencer, defeated people from all over, transmitted to me the TRUE secrets of fencing, which you poor saps are ignorant of, and no matter how you slice it, an epee is only good for cutting and chopping attacks.”

    Some big strong guys might well be doing WC in a 'hard' way, but IMO the moves aren't well suited to that. The blocks only work as re-directions, vs a Kali-style destruction where you're trying to bang into the incoming limb, and the sticky hands, which I do find valuable in being able to 'listen' to someone's energy and send it off, don't work if you're tense.
    For me, Wing Chun is not a complete art, and one of the reasons I took to Sifu Chi was his open-mindedness about this, he'd gotten there before me. He had trained WC under multiple teachers, had also been trained in boxing by Cus D'Amato (Floyd Patterson, Mike Tyson) in the military, been East Coast Military Boxing champ twice. He talked about being all 'WC beats everything!,' then taking class from Chai Sirisute, who told him to come at him like a boxer, and when he did kicked him in the leg so hard he thought he might pass out. “Muay Thai can contribute strength and power to our martial art, two areas where it was sorely lacking,” is what Chi said to me.
    To his credit, though he's kicked much anus himself, Chi has never shied away from relating when someone else has knocked him on his ass, Chai and Randy White come to mind. And then he stayed and learned those arts.
    Anyone who says that WC needs some additions, especially in these days where anyone might go for a takedown, based on what they've seen on the UFC, will get no argument from me.

  14. #854
    Dale thanks.

    Cat thanks

    I'm no big fan of Joe Rogan. I seldom watch him. He does make good points though.

    I hope no one think's I am bashing Wing Chun. I am not. Do what you like. If you believe in it and enjoy it and it gives you what you currently want out of it. You made the right choice. Really it depends on what you are training for. In the fights I posted. Much is useless for those events. So, if a WC guy wants to try other styles with rules in place, those videos may be a good thing to model after. Tweek where you see room for improvement.

    As a friend just wrote me today. "The ring is a proving ground for the FIGHTER and not the ART. Fighting is a war of attrition. You have to be able to absorb tremendous punishment and I think it's more God given ability then anything that can be trained into you.Some of the best skilled boxers still feel to pieces when they got tagged on the chin by less skilled fighters."

    I think there is a lot of truth in his statement. I've bounced a lot off him over there years. I appreciate his input always.

    I sent him a link to the last page because I was impressed by Cats, posts. He was as well by the way.

  15. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Fighting is a war of attrition.
    Unless you have adopted maneuver warfare.

    What's old is new again. Good enough for the US military.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare

    attrition warfare - size and strength
    maneuver warfare - training and technical skills

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