Ng chan wing chun

[Graham H]

Its not possible for anybody to claim they have "real" ving tsun. What happened in Yip Man's time is open to speculation. We were not there so its a pointless discussion. What we do know was that Yip Man was a reluctant teacher and his own personal life would also have had an influence.
Yip Man did not have many versions of Wing Chun. He had many friends and many visitors as did his students after him. What I look for are simularites between lineages and whether there is still depth and consistencies the further you go through the system. This is the only way we can tell who had most contact with Yip Man. There is also the fact that certain people such as WSL evolved the system further based on tried and tested methods.
It has been said that Yip Man prefered to teach students that were more willing and able. I understand this because I feel the same. If people dont train hard and dont train consistently then why bother unloading the information on them? Some people get it and some people dont. I have stsudents that if they went out and opened a school today, as many of Yip Mans students did, then they would be teaching a incopmplete system. If they has the audacity to pull the wool over peoples eyes and say they know the whole system based on a lust for money then you can see the problems that this would cause further down the line.

To prove this hypthesis even more then I know for a fact that this has happened within WSL's students and also Philipp Bayers students.

So whether you are Ng Chan, William Cheung, Ho Kam Ming, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Chun, Ip Ching, Wong Shun Leung etc etc etc means nothing! The proof is in the pudding. You must go and see first hand and not put too much faith in articles and video footage.

GH

[Vajramusti]

Hello , anyway thinking about what moshe has said about Ng Chan having the Authentic WC . Ng Chan Sifu did the Sil Lum Tao set the way we do it too , the only thing is the bridge and the extension of both arms , are done in different order from the way I do mine . But it ' s the same way . And Ng Chan Sifu learned from Ip Man too . So it means we all have the authentic WC .

Now Joy , Ho Kam Ming Sifu learned privately from Ip Man himself , did Ip Man have the private student come to the private session by appointment ? The reason why I ask is because on this thread you mentioned that when Ho Kam Ming Sifu was at Ip Man private session , NG Chan Sifu was ' nt around . So I ' m just curiuos , about how Ip Man was scheduling his private sessions . You see what I mean , we all thought we were reading true information on Ng Chan WC , but again we hear conflicting information about Ng Chan sifu . But I agree with you too there were other people who were good in WC , not only Ng Chan Sifu .

Take Care ,
Lance

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I am commenting only on Ho Kam Ming- his private lessons were indeed private- one to one
and no one else besides HKM and IM were there. For full attention, private lessons were just that- private.I am not talking about the group classes.Ip Ching and Ip Chun did not arrive in HK till 1962. This does not conflict with the idea of Ng Chan living with Ip Man when he did. Ip Man did not teach everyone everything. Big mistake to assume that he used the same routine with everyone. That is a source of great confusion.

Ho Kam Ming spent quality time with Ip Man. For instance- lots of footwork- many folks don't have the detailed footwork.

But wing chun is such a good system that you can fight after learning and practicing slt and chum kiu and the related chi sao with gor sao applications well for those levels of training.

Bruce Lee mainly learned the slt - look how far he went with adapting boxing footwork
and some one sidedness- so called strong hand in the front.

Wing chun is double sided with proper connection of the legs, the mid section and both hands- coordinated structure- all the way. Chi sao helps coordinate all this. HKM did tons of chi sao with IM- who did not touch every student's hands.

joy

[k gledhill]

Im looking forwards to meeting Moshe one day, good to find others equally as nuts about VT

[Graham H]

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I am commenting only on Ho Kam Ming- his private lessons were indeed private- one to one
and no one else besides HKM and IM were there. For full attention, private lessons were just that- private.I am not talking about the group classes.Ip Ching and Ip Chun did not arrive in HK till 1962. This does not conflict with the idea of Ng Chan living with Ip Man when he did. Ip Man did not teach everyone everything. Big mistake to assume that he used the same routine with everyone. That is a source of great confusion.

Ho Kam Ming spent quality time with Ip Man. For instance- lots of footwork- many folks don't have the detailed footwork.

But wing chun is such a good system that you can fight after learning and practicing slt and chum kiu and the related chi sao with gor sao applications well for those levels of training.

Bruce Lee mainly learned the slt - look how far he went with adapting boxing footwork
and some one sidedness- so called strong hand in the front.

Wing chun is double sided with proper connection of the legs, the mid section and both hands- coordinated structure- all the way. Chi sao helps coordinate all this. HKM did tons of chi sao with IM- who did not touch every student's hands.

joy

Joy

Neither you or Fong were there! You talk like you shared these lessons between Ho and Ip Man. Of course Ho would say that. All of Ip Mans students say the same thing. Only they know the real stories. We don not! The only thing I can say about WSL's relationship with Ip Man is what I read and what I get told from people that spent many hours in his company. I was not there though so I respect what has been said and that is all.

GH

[Vajramusti]

My response was to Lance's specific query.

jc

[Tom Kagan]

Of course Ho would say that. All of Ip Mans students say the same thing.

For what it's worth, Moy Yat never spoke about the specifics of any of his private lessons with Yip Man - at least not to me. He did, however, say three things about private lessons with Yip Man in general (probably more than three, but this is what pops into my head right now):

• Some would take private lessons, then exaggerate (or flat out lie about) what they learned to the younger students who had no frame of reference to be able to discern what was bullsh1t.
  
  
• Some would take advantage of Yip Man and "remind" him they were up to a certain level when they were, in actuality, not in order to get Yip Man to teach them what they thought were more "advanced" techniques. Specifically mentioned was the MukYanJong in this context to explain an observation about a few of Yip Man's students performing sections and techniques out of order from the generally accepted sequence amongst his SiHings.
  
  
• If you are not emotionally mature enough to separate method from result, you can get confused easily as to what is a specific motivational tool for you and the actual lesson. That is, when you learn something, you also tend to remember the context in which you learned it. For instance: if someone tells you: "come back when no one is around", then when you do, they pull the blinds closed and tell you to keep to yourself what you just learned, you could find yourself thinking that is just as or even more important than the actual lesson. If you then actually keep it to yourself, then you are not practicing what you learned with your peers and, therefore, you learned nothing. But if you do practice it with your peers, the alledged "secret" is out.

The above reasons are why I find parts of this thread amusing and why I choose to respond to it.

[MOSHE]

The above reasons are why I find parts of this thread amusing and why I choose to respond to it.

ask to the son of moy yat about ng chan

in july 1998, during a business trip ,i came to the moy yat studio to compare with my wing chun ,and i did shi sao with a nice chinese guy who introduced himself like being one of the first student of moy yat there

my wing chun wasnt at the same configuration as now but he was quite surprised by my arms penetration strength

[k gledhill]

Moy Yat came to london while I was under V Kan. We chisaoed with students of his. Nice guy, I also attended his funeral as V Kan rep. in NYC.

[Tom Kagan]

ask to the son of moy yat about ng chan

in july 1998, during a business trip ,i came to the moy yat studio to compare with my wing chun ,and i did shi sao with a nice chinese guy who introduced himself like being one of the first student of moy yat there

my wing chun wasnt at the same configuration as now but he was quite surprised by my arms penetration strength

No need to ask. I can narrow it down already to one of only three people. (Describe him a little more and I can tell you who exactly). None of them would be, as you suggest, "surprised" by meeting a good student - perhaps pleased, but not surprised. Maybe he was being polite.

Regardless, what's your point? Your skill is irrelevant to what I've said, with one exception: your understanding of the word "breakdown" versas mine - which I attribute to English being your second language.

[LoneTiger108]

Its not possible for anybody to claim they have "real" ving tsun.

But you do quite a good job actually doing so G!

The question that nobody has dared asked is this; If Ng Chan was so close to Ip Man, he would actually know who was selected as the gatekeeper of the Wing Chun system?

And so would Moy Yat, or Ho Kam Ming or even Wong Shun Leung. All I have seen so far is that whoever it is, they are 'overseas'! Obviously meaning outside of China.

But as far as I'm aware, there is no 'known' formal Gatekeeper of Wing Chun who was taught by Ip Man, but there are others who claim to be gatekeepers of other earlier lineages. Does that make any sense to anyone??

Who here can get on the phone to one of Ip Mans sons and get a straight answer?

Who here thinks the Ip family themselves do not know??

[Vajramusti]

But you do quite a good job actually doing so G!

The question that nobody has dared asked is this; If Ng Chan was so close to Ip Man, he would actually know who was selected as the gatekeeper of the Wing Chun system?

And so would Moy Yat, or Ho Kam Ming or even Wong Shun Leung. All I have seen so far is that whoever it is, they are 'overseas'! Obviously meaning outside of China.

But as far as I'm aware, there is no 'known' formal Gatekeeper of Wing Chun who was taught by Ip Man, but there are others who claim to be gatekeepers of other earlier lineages. Does that make any sense to anyone??

Who here can get on the phone to one of Ip Mans sons and get a straight answer?

Who here thinks the Ip family themselves do not know??

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I don't understand this post. Gatekeeper? No such person in Ip man wing chun.... period.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

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I don't understand this post. Gatekeeper? No such person in Ip man wing chun.... period.

joy chaudhuri

Why not Joy? Is that what you were told? And FWIW I'm not really talking about 'Ip Man' Wing Chun, because that didn't really exist prior to his death did it?

I'm talking about Wing Chun, plain and simple.

[MOSHE]

If Ng Chan was so close to Ip Man, he would actually know who was selected as the gatekeeper of the Wing Chun system?[/QUOTE]
you missed a precedent post, first was kwok fu than ng chan
no more than these two



[/QUOTE]But as far as I'm aware, there is no 'known' formal Gatekeeper of Wing Chun[/QUOTE]

secret was secret.you didnt know for this reason

[/QUOTE]Who here can get on the phone to one of Ip Mans sons and get a straight answer?[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]Who here thinks the Ip family themselves do not know?[/QUOTE]
there is a chinese post from ip chin about ng chan
themselves ,they dont know the leung bik system,and they never claimed it

[LoneTiger108]

you missed a precedent post, first was kwok fu than ng chan no more than these two...

... secret was secret.you didnt know for this reason

This is why I'm asking Are you actually saying that Kwok Fu then Ng Chan are the formal Gatekeepers of Ip Man Wing Chun, or Leung Biks system?

I'm a little confused.

there is a chinese post from ip chin about ng chan themselves, they dont know the leung bik system,and they never claimed it

So Ng Chan 'claimed it' for himself? Again, I'm confused!

I know a student of Lun Gai, who was close to Kwok Fu but they're more commonly known in the UK as Foshan Wing Chun and have links to my own Sigung through people such as Wai Po Tang and Simon Lau.

But I have never heard them mentioned when discussing anything about who inherited Ip Mans art, just an acknowledgement that they had an earlier version of Ip Mans art!

Have a look at some photos here and tell me who you recognise... (please!)

http://lungai-foshan-wingchun.co.uk/aboutus.aspx

[Tom Kagan]

secret was secret.you didnt know for this reason

There is a funny secret about such type of "secrets": They go both ways.

• If I share with you some "lesson" but make you swear not to discuss what you learned with anyone else (and you keep your word), how do you know who else I may have shared it with? There is only one correct answer to this question: You don't know.
  
  
• Even if I shared with you a list of others who learned the same "lesson", how do you verify they are the only ones without breaking your word? There is only one correct answer to this question: You can't verify it.
  
  
• Even if, for the sake of argument, I shared with you a 100% accurate list of those who learned the same "lesson" as of that moment, how would you be able to determine no one else after you and they learned the same "lesson" after you? There is only one correct answer to this question: You have no way to determine it.

What is your explanation for why I know of no less than SIX of Yip Man's Hong Kong students and TWO of Yip Man's China students who claim the exact same thing you state: only they learned it all - including Leung Bik - and no one else did?