Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[LFJ]

In another video he talks about "chase the center, don't chase hands", yet this is his strategy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8

He shifts to move out of the way and block. This is being afraid of the hands and chasing them to the side trying not to get hit.

In contrast, gaang-sau as we do it must be directed at the opponent's mass, not to the side at their arms. The jam-sau arm "cuts the way" down the center to hit the opponent in one beat. That's "chasing the center". Kwan-sau must also be driven to affect their core, not bat their arms.

But here, he turns and blocks with his hands going sideways away from the opponent, "chasing the hands". He will need another step to attack, but by then he'll have to chase the other hand. Yet he talks about "don't chase hands" in another clip, not realizing that his whole approach is exactly that!

So sure, given a strategy like this, the baiting guard is going to be useless because you're still chasing hands. Our target is always the person, not their arms. Narrowing their lines of attack to mainly one side means we need care even less about their arms and carry on hitting them.

[Happy Tiger]

A complete misunderstanding of basic strategy. This guard serves only to facilitate the strategy which is "cutting the way". There is no hand chasing whatsoever. The response is cutting down the center line with a straight line attack. We don't care about the hands, and this guard is making it so that we need care even less.

I guess Graham is right, if you have no conception of "cutting the way" then this can turn into chasing hands, but probably because you chase hands anyway without realizing it.

I would like to see two VT ers attempting this arbitrary tactic on one another at the same time....to circus music

[LFJ]

Arbitrary tactic?

[Happy Tiger]

Arbitrary tactic?

At least for me it isn't whether this idea cannot work under certain conditions but that it is used as a standard tactic .That's where I have a problem with it.

[k gledhill]

If you look at things one at a time, you might not realize that a branch of separate "trees" go together to make a "forest". Classic not seeing the forest for the trees here, focusing on details of one aspect and losing the whole picture...

[BPWT]

In another video he talks about "chase the center, don't chase hands", yet this is his strategy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnRZzuQAmG8
He shifts to move out of the way and block. This is being afraid of the hands and chasing them to the side trying not to get hit.

In this video Leung Ting is stressing the importance of moving off the line of attack. In his system you almost always* have hand shapes and motions (tan, jam, garn, etc, etc) that should be cleaving/slicing towards the opponent's center, while your body usually will be moving off the line.

Very hard to see this when something is demo'd in the air. But in person, you can feel this force, which is driven from the elbow, regardless of the position of the hand.

The degree to which LT WT guys shift off the line is probably one of the things that differs the most from other YM lineages. That said, there are more commonalities than differences.

* almost always as there is always an exception to the rule, particularly if you find yourself with bad/late timing. And, of course, there are some tactical reasons too. Here LT is demonstrating Wooden Dummy work, which for us has a few different concepts too

So basically speaking, Kwan Sao for us is also about cleaving to the opponent's center (and this means forward force with the dai bong sao too). We don't want to chase the hands, but we also want to maintain stick when needed, even when we have center and exploit it. E.g. If I take center and strike you with a straight punch but you were able to get off a hook, let's say, this is a 'no win' situation for both of us (I hit you and you hit me too).

I need to take the line of attack, strike and control. But again, this is hardly unique to the LT WT system - most lineages work the same idea.

Here's an example of a clown who chases hands without even knowing it.

C'mon. Does it really further your point to call Leung Ting a clown?

Maybe I talk online with a WSL guy and conclude that we both do things a little differently... you don't see me insulting WSL.

[LFJ]

In this video Leung Ting is stressing the importance of moving off the line of attack. In his system you almost always* have hand shapes and motions (tan, jam, garn, etc, etc) that should be cleaving/slicing towards the opponent's center, while your body usually will be moving off the line.

Very hard to see this when something is demo'd in the air. But in person, you can feel this force, which is driven from the elbow, regardless of the position of the hand.

It's not difficult to see that the direction of his arms are sideways and not "cleaving toward the opponent's center". His shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent anyway...

I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

C'mon. Does it really further your point to call Leung Ting a clown?

He gets to call people idiots to further his point and I can't call him a clown? You're a clown.

[BPWT]

It's not difficult to see that the direction of his arms are sideways and not "cleaving toward the opponent's center". His shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent anyway... I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force. Horses for courses. You see this is wrong, I don't see it as wrong at all.

Looking at the dummy clip, I am not seeing what you see at all. But this is largely accountable to feeling - I have felt this in application from our line. Again, horses for courses. If you do things differently, that is interesting. The point of forums is to talk, to share. Doesn't need to be a p*ssing contest. (or does it?)

He gets to call people idiots to further his point and I can't call him a clown?

I never heard him call WSL an idiot. If he did, well, that would be rather silly of him. Of course, he has on many occasions said other Wing Chun methods are wrong from his perspective and from the way his art is performed. But even if he called the whole world idiots, you'd feel the need to go there too?

You're a clown.

Nice. Really mature.

[LFJ]

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force. Horses for courses. You see this is wrong, I don't see it as wrong at all.

Moving away from the opponent, they can't hit him, but he can't hit them either. He's chasing hands, not attacking their center.

If you do things differently, that is interesting. The point of forums is to talk, to share.

This topic is about the baiting guard and my comment is how it must work with the proper strategy of "cutting the way". As I said, if your strategy is different it likely won't work, but that's likely because you're chasing hands without knowing it, much like Leung Ting.

I never heard him call WSL an idiot. If he did, well, that would be rather silly of him. Of course, he has on many occasions said other Wing Chun methods are wrong from his perspective and from the way his art is performed. But even if he called the whole world idiots, you'd feel the need to go there too?

Didn't say he was talking about WSL, he did call others who do it differently idiots in the video though, but why do you feel the need to parent my speech? Ignore it if you don't like it.

I called him a clown anyway because he speaks of not chasing hands but does it himself. He's an example of someone who couldn't make the baiting guard work because his strategy is chasing hands not attacking center.

With the proper strategy, the baiting guard facilitates interception and "cutting the way". Unlike others who are imagining what pitfalls it may have, I've tried it. It's not exactly as comfortable as what I'm used to doing, but it does what it's supposed to do.

[BPWT]

Moving away from the opponent, they can't hit him, but he can't hit them either. He's chasing hands, not attacking their center.

Not moving away from the opponent - away from the line. Whenever I perform kwan sao, for example, I move away from the line but I remain in striking range (without need for a step, though I do want to step in if the option is there).

... but that's likely because you're chasing hands without knowing it, much like Leung Ting.

Other than meeting with you to show how the force comes forward from the elbow, I don't see how I can explain that there is no hand chasing as I understand it. There is bridging with forward force. Have you ever chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line (I am not talking about the EWTO)?

Did you feel they were chasing hands? Or did you feel constant forward pressure that was always trying to take center?

... but why do you feel the need to parent my speech? Ignore it if you don't like it.

Of course I can ignore it. But then we're no longer talking and no longer exchanging info and ideas. I'm simply saying you can disagree with me all you want, but why does it need to include insults to me, or insults to Leung Ting? It's childish.

[LFJ]

Yes, his shifting off the line is taking him away from the opponent - away from the line of force.

Not moving away from the opponent - away from the line.

Whenever I perform kwan sao, for example, I move away from the line but I remain in striking range (without need for a step, though I do want to step in if the option is there).

Say what you mean, huh? Either way, you're moving away. You're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands. You'll need another step to attack them.

Other than meeting with you to show how the force comes forward from the elbow, I don't see how I can explain that there is no hand chasing as I understand it. There is bridging with forward force.

Perhaps you don't understand it then, much like Leung Ting. You move away and bridge. Albeit with "forward force", that's chasing hands.

[BPWT]

Say what you mean, huh? Either way, you're moving away. You're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands. You'll need another step to attack them. Perhaps you don't understand it then, much like Leung Ting. You move away and bridge. Albeit with "forward force", that's chasing hands.

I mean that you shift and move your center away from the line of attack/force from your opponent. The distance at that point (between your body and theirs) has still been closed - so I mean I am not physically moving away my whole body from the opponent and increasing the distance between us. That would only happen if, instead of shifting, I actively stepped away from the opponent's attack with the intention of keeping distance between us. I want to close the distance, not extend it. Kwan sao, for example, is not extending distance.

When you say "you're moving away, you're not attacking. You're only dealing with the opponent's hands," this is correct and incorrect as I see it.

Yes, I am shifting away from the force and yes, I am at that point not kicking, punching etc so in the most obvious sense I am not attacking. But my hands are bridging and because of this forward force towards the opponent's center I am not chasing the hands, but chasing the center - this is an attack.

We all at some point engage the hands - that's why our systems have tan and bong and fook and jut etc, etc. But if I use tan, as described above, and the line to the center is open the tan will become a punch. Or to put it another way, with the example of kwan sao... you grab and pull my man sao - I convert it to dai bong (keeping forward pressure) and as you pulled down the man sao, I punched you with other hand that was in wu - but you punched too and you had the better line of attack, so my punch becomes tan as I shift my weight to regain the line (again keeping forward pressure). This kwan movement is not just rotation on a fixed point - it is pushing forward.

Even the hand in dai bong has this forward force. It is not chasing the hand that pulled it.. it is pressuring to get to the center of the opponent - which it will, if they release from their pulling motion badly.

If all of this (closing distance, taking center, bridging with forward force towards the opponent's center) means that I am chasing hands in your definition, then yes... okay, I am chasing hands.

It really is quite hard to describe some of these things. When you chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line outside of the EWTO, what was your experience? Did you feel the forward pressure I am trying to describe, in relation to how they used the bridging?

Genuine question - I want to try and understand what you felt when you were chi sao'ing with them.

[BPWT]

I don't know a video of him doing it on a person, but here he goes on the dummy. Each time he does gaang-sau or kwan-sau you can see the sideways effect on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWBPjQEJCmU

All this typing from me, and I still don't know if I am explaining it well. But the dummy clip highlights what I am saying.

The movement of the dummy is back and sideways. Why? Because the force is forward, but the point of engagement is (naturally) on the side of the dummy's arms. Leung Ting's kwan sao makes contact with the side of the dummy's arms, but his force is forwards - so the dummy rocks back and to the side.

[BPWT]

The same things happens here, with WSL on the dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU

WSL engages the side of the dummy's arms - but his force is forward, yes? Or would you say he is chasing hands?

[LFJ]

I mean that you shift and move your center away from the line of attack/force from your opponent. The distance at that point has still been closed - so I mean I am not physically moving away from the opponent and increasing the distance between us.

Shift on the balls of your feet like Leung Ting and you are physically moving away from the opponent. The opponent is directly in front of you and you shift away to the side. That neither brings you closer nor keeps in in place.

Here's how and why we shift on the heels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--wgG...endscreen&NR=1

It really is quite hard to describe some of these things. When you chi sao'd with someone from the LT WT line outside of the EWTO, what was your experience?

I couldn't tell you the difference between organizations, but as I've experienced, they are hand-chasers who try running circles around their opponents. They have no conception of "cutting the way", as in the above video.