Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[GlennR]

Maybe "down" as in somewhat lower than the fist, but with the fist horizontal as in the hook in Joy's picture, it's impossible to get the elbow down in the center.

With a vertical fist, having the elbow down and to the center causes the fist to travel in a straight line to the target, meaning it's not a hook at all anyway.



I've explained why not. Because the hook leaves the elbow out which makes a nice little opening right down your center where the guy would be anyway. If he rushes in (assuming you're not fighting another WC guy) he will enter right inside your hook which will miss, and since your body hasn't shifted and elbow closed the center, he will come right into your chest, perhaps to clinch around your waist for a takedown if he's a grappler. And all your hook will do is hug him.

The first dummy action is to shift and close the center to prevent them coming in. It also immediately affects their posture and balance so that you can continue to strike them effectively. Just standing there and hooking is a big gamble. You've done nothing to close and prevent them getting in.

That's just one reason why hook punches don't fit in Wing Chun concepts or strategy. It's not a game of boxing, or just against other WC guys.

You can hook with either a vertical or horizontal fist, in fact I hook with a vertical fist as that's my preference.

I understand your explanation regarding the elbow up, I guess the hook does offer an opportunity to get in and under the elbow and that may go against your ideas.
Keep in mind that if I hook , and he moves further inside that hook, I can turn that into an elbow..... It's all one move essentially

Personally, I'm a little bit with G on the grab, it does commit me to him, and size differences can and do offer problems in that scenario.... What if he is 6 inches on me?

So I'm thinking, in my thoughts, all three are valid depending on the situation and that all three a valid WC applications

[LFJ]

You can hook with either a vertical or horizontal fist, in fact I hook with a vertical fist as that's my preference.

You can't physically keep your elbow down and in and hook with a horizontal fist. With the fist vertical it is possible, but as I've been describing in previous posts, that causes a straight path of the fist and is no longer a hook.

Keep in mind that if I hook , and he moves further inside that hook, I can turn that into an elbow..... It's all one move essentially

If he moves inside your hook (toward you- imagine a grappler's entrance to clinch), your fist would go behind him. So an elbow would be impossible.

Personally, I'm a little bit with G on the grab, it does commit me to him, and size differences can and do offer problems in that scenario.... What if he is 6 inches on me?

It's similar to the Biu-ji action with the elbow cutting the line in from the outside as I described it. It can still be a strike, but the main thing is bringing the elbow to the center and shifting to prevent them coming in.

Elbow position is the key in Wing Chun. It's the main theme developed in Siu-nim-tau.

It's a mistake to look at Biu-ji actions and incorporate them into your core strategy (such as throwing elbows, going beneath your bridge, fully extending both arms together). Most things in Biu-ji should in fact never be used outside of emergency. WSL said the form is open-ended and things could be added to it if another situation were to come up, but it pretty much covers the bases and the form is often taught rather late in one's learning career as it violates WC principles. You don't want to be bringing BJ thinking into your core strategy. A good WC fighter will never have to use BJ.

[wingchunIan]

You can hook with the elbow somewhat down, boxing 101 would say the elbow is up with the forearm parallel to the ground but ,plenty of the greatest hooks in history have been with the elbow down.

You are right that you are attacking his structure but still, in my understanding of WC, is that it all starts with the strike.... Any of the other acts come after that has been thrown

So in he scenario why not hit the guy with the hook then follow with your preferred action.... I've hit him and then I chase his structure which is easier to pull of if he is a bit stunned.

Glen, IME the man gang sao technique demonstrated by WSL in the vid is not just a pull (even if that is all WSL chose to show on that particular seminar). The short sharp retracting energy should cause the hand to strike, the strike then naturally becomes a jerking action upon contact. The target area is the back of the neck where the head meets the neck which is a horrible place to be hit and contains a major nerve plexus (and accu points if you prefer) thus the pull / jerking action is also a strike and the strike is also an attack on the posture and balance of the opponent.

[Graham H]

So in that situation G you wouldn't strike like I suggested or grab like lfj suggested ( both valid IMO).... So you'd just bring the elbow back to the centre?

Surely an opportunity missed???

What happens in a fight happens there and then. We cannot predict it. You guys (IMO) are missing the whole point of Ving Tsun. It's conceptual. The forms teach us certain ideas. How we apply those ideas depends on many factors and is acted out in real time. As soon as we start saying we apply this move to that or that move to this the whole things goes out the window.

You ask me what I will do if you attack me? I say attack and then you will know. Until then I don't know myself. Applying applications to all the movements in the forms is not a good approach IMO. I don't think of missed opportunities. There is no time to think, only react. 1000's of hours of chi sau/gor sau/sparring should give us the tools to be react and adapt with the correct repsonse. As that is not always going to happen we have methods of getting things back on track or running off down the road. There is no guess work or karatefied "you do this and I will do that BS"

WSL....he was a short guy. Do you think he would have been trying to grab people around the neck and control them? Maybe he did, maybe didn't but common sense tells me he probably had other ideas in mind.

The problem you guys are also making (as usual) is that you are making judgements based on video footage. I have had conversations with people who were in the same room as WSL during his seminars and most people only see one bit of an explanation that may have gone on for a lot longer and more around the dinner table later that day.

I wasn't in the room so I can't comment but the footage of WSL in seminar mode is great to watch but they are not Kung fu lessons. For that you have to speak and be taught by one of his students and things become clearer. One of his proper students BTW and not one who has only used his name for personal gain and doesn't know too much as I have experienced in the past.

[LFJ]

Yes, Graham, it is not about "you do this, I do that". The problem is a punch is slipped on the inside and center lost, so the idea is the regain the center and prevent the opponent from coming in. It's all about the elbow. It's basically Siu-nim-tau with a shift.

@2:04 WSL further explains if you can reach the back of their neck, why not just punch them? So the intention is not to grab, it is to not waste the extended limb after missing a punch and to quickly regain the center, preventing their counter. Shifting and jerking the elbow back to center just happens to turn into a grab/strike due to the position. Even not considering the strike/grab "technique", the main idea is to shift and bring the elbow in quickly for recovery.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3YYaRjws8

[Graham H]

Yes, Graham, it is not about "you do this, I do that". The problem is a punch is slipped on the inside and center lost, so the idea is the regain the center and prevent the opponent from coming in. It's all about the elbow. It's basically Siu-nim-tau with a shift.

@2:04 WSL further explains if you can reach the back of their neck, why not just punch them? So the intention is not to grab, it is to not waste the extended limb after missing a punch and to quickly regain the center, preventing their counter. Shifting and jerking the elbow back to center just happens to turn into a grab/strike due to the position. Even not considering the strike/grab "technique", the main idea is to shift and bring the elbow in quickly for recovery.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3YYaRjws8

I agree.

SLT with a shift is chum kiu

[Graham H]

Shifting and jerking the elbow back to center just happens to turn into a grab/strike due to the position.

For me, strike yes......grab no.

These actions in the dummy also train Jut Sau with using the waist. Lets not forget that part.

I don't use the analogy of a punch being slipped anymore either. You can make these things work in the gym but not in a real altercation.

One of the main focuses of Ving Tsun is punching precision. Unless we are unfortunate enough to meet Floyd Maywether down the road I doubt anybody will be slipping too many punches

If a punch misses the target the next one should already be on its way unless we are fighting on the moon.

We are talking split seconds here. No need to over indulge in it.

[Graham H]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3YYaRjws8

I don't really watch too much footage mate and I try not to pass too many comments anymore unless I was there.

[LFJ]

For me, strike yes......grab no.

These actions in the dummy also train Jut Sau with using the waist. Lets not forget that part.

Yup, it's a lot of waist energy. That's why it's actually more of a quick jerk than a grab, as it is only a split second thing to take their position and continue striking, not to grab and control like wrestling.

If a punch misses the target the next one should already be on its way unless we are fighting on the moon.

Ideally, sure, but the scenario given by Glenn was one in which our other hand is tied up in some way. Of course it may not do much good to set up scenarios in our minds and talk about how to deal with them, but it's just the recovery principle of regaining the center, not exactly a technique to go for. You may just bring the elbow back to center in order to open the line for the other hand and continue on striking as usual.

[Ali. R]

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My my-the forms are full of elbows!

We do a knee/kick/stomp technique on the dummy, I was introduced to the knees in wing chun back in the early 80’s.

[Graham H]

Of course it may not do much good to set up scenarios in our minds and talk about how to deal with them.

My thinking exactly

[Ali. R]

Not sure if I’m spelling it correctlly, been a long time.

Yai sut/is really good to use when someone is in a wristlock/arm tie or if you catch them in a position with their heads below your waist level -or- just attacking your opponents lead leg with it, while taking over their center of gravity and manipulating their centerline.

Gwai sut/is a good way to stop kicks and which can easily convert into a standing leg sweep.
It’s a lot more ways to use them, but I’ll just mention those to start off with.

I’ve used those techniques in the streets/bar fights (was a cooler in Detroit for many years) and they seemed to work just fine.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I totally respect dissenting view points, even if I may not agree, so I am willing to accept that a typicla boxers hook may not comply to an interpretation of WC principles and concepts ( there is a reason there are different expressions of WC, like any other MA).
BUT I ask this though:
It has been proven over and over in various studies that the hook punch is one of the most powerful fist strikes ( arguably the most powerful), so why NOT adapt it to WC?

[Graham H]

I totally respect dissenting view points, even if I may not agree, so I am willing to accept that a typicla boxers hook may not comply to an interpretation of WC principles and concepts ( there is a reason there are different expressions of WC, like any other MA).
BUT I ask this though:
It has been proven over and over in various studies that the hook punch is one of the most powerful fist strikes ( arguably the most powerful), so why NOT adapt it to WC?

Then why not adapt any other technique from any other system into VT? There is enough work to do with what we already have. No time for other ideas.

No point in getting into long discussions about the pros and cons of hook punches. If you throw one and it wins you the fight then happy days.

[LFJ]

Exactly. The point of this discussion was never about the effectiveness of hook punches or whether or not one should incorporate them, but just about being clear on what is and isn't Wing Chun in principle and concept, and why.

If it works and you like it, do whatever. But one can adhere to their WC strategy and perform just as well, and in many cases better. The only thing a WC fighter would need to cross train is perhaps ground fighting should they find themselves there. They have the stand up to a science that doesn't need modification to end fights against any style, IMO, unlike the game of boxing, for example.