Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[Frost]

Exactly. The point of this discussion was never about the effectiveness of hook punches or whether or not one should incorporate them, but just about being clear on what is and isn't Wing Chun in principle and concept, and why.

If it works and you like it, do whatever. But one can adhere to their WC strategy and perform just as well, and in many cases better. The only thing a WC fighter would need to cross train is perhaps ground fighting should they find themselves there. They have the stand up to a science that doesn't need modification to end fights against any style, IMO, unlike the game of boxing, for example.

really it has it down to a science???? and yet not once can anyone post any clips of this style actually winning in a fight against a decent fighter, not in K1, sanda, sanshou, MMA or even just a sparring match for lords sake.

Science is proven by the application of its theories in an actual testing enviorment what testing enviroment does wing chun use these days to test its theories, apart from this forum?

[Ali. R]

He has a good point there, when I wanted to post a clip, I had to join a professional setting; just couldn’t spar anyone or it wouldn’t be legit, when I have tons all clip of me fighting all kinds of people.

But,,, I was told over and over again that they wouldn’t be accepted, I wonder why?

[Vajramusti]

Exactly. The point of this discussion was never about the effectiveness of hook punches or whether or not one should incorporate them, but just about being clear on what is and isn't Wing Chun in principle and concept, and why.

If it works and you like it, do whatever. But one can adhere to their WC strategy and perform just as well, and in many cases better. The only thing a WC fighter would need to cross train is perhaps ground fighting should they find themselves there. They have the stand up to a science that doesn't need modification to end fights against any style, IMO, unlike the game of boxing, for example.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parallel and mutually exclusive universes involved in the discussion. It's ok- based on what I sense of your training background.
Sanjuro is correct- the hook packs tremendous power at it's proper range.

But as I have mentioned it repeatedly- using wing chun structure one can hook. The boxing structure can make you vulnerable to grapplers.

Also, wing chun is a stand up art. But if you have good structure(many wcers dont)and mobility
(many dont) you havea greater chance of standing up and playing your game. If you have trained your joints in wing chun fashion you can still get out and get up... and play your game.You play the other guys game- not a good idea.

[LFJ]

@Frost

Wing Chun is a self-defense skill. It's effectiveness has been proven by its practitioners. It doesn't need to be proven in sport fighting against the most elite MMAs. Refer back to the Bruce Lee thread if you like. I don't feel like reengaging in that conversation right now.

And I mean scientific in how its precise structures function. It's a very exact skill. Don't know how deeply you've studied it. Didn't you say you aren't a Wing Chun practitioner?

[LFJ]

But as I have mentioned it repeatedly- using wing chun structure one can hook. The boxing structure can make you vulnerable to grapplers.

You haven't explained it though, in fact on the contrary you've completely ducked that discussion...

If you have trained your joints in wing chun fashion you can still get out and get up... and play your game.You play the other guys game- not a good idea.

So you think you're just gonna wiggle and squirm your way out from under a skilled BJJ fighter? Good luck...

[Vajramusti]

You haven't explained it though, in fact on the contrary you've completely ducked that discussion...

((Can't help you. You are stuck ina different pseudo WSL universe- WSL didnt teach you or another frequent poster.
For training--my dummy form has a section with the so called hook...my Biu gee also does-I do not usea boxing structure buta wing chun structure for both.The name "hook" may be confusing you- you can try diagonal punch-do gok kuen as a "label". For practicing you can use the ygkym and do
chor ma turn and punch in with elbow and body structure power. Then you can apply it in chi sao with inside hand or outside hand. Then you can apply it in man sao work and sparring if you wish.))





So you think you're just gonna wiggle and squirm your way out from under a skilled BJJ fighter? Good luck...

((I don't plan to play their game. I try not to depend on luck. I think my part of the discussion is done. Cheers)..

[Ali. R]

So you think you're just gonna wiggle and squirm your way out from under a skilled BJJ fighter? Good luck...

I have, and he couldn’t take me down not one time; made his wife cry in the process, only reason why I'd walked away with his blood all over my hands and clothing.

Not saying that I’ll do everyone like that, but he wasn’t the only one.

[LFJ]

The name "hook" may be confusing you- you can try diagonal punch-do gok kuen as a "label".

On the contrary the name "hook" may be confusing you. A hook by definition is not a straight line. If you're talking about a straight line, you're not talking about a hook.

I don't plan to play their game. I try not to depend on luck. I think my part of the discussion is done.

Just like your part of the fight is done if you think you're gonna wiggle your way out without knowing anything about ground fighting.

[LFJ]

I have, and he couldn’t take me down not one time;

Then how'd you end up beneath him... wait, never mind!

[Ali. R]

Then how'd you end up beneath him... wait, never mind!

I was way too fast for them and sometimes I’d would knock them out right in the middle of their shoot and never broke structure when they grabbed me, always use my energies and structures so they couldn’t manipulate my limbs. I just never played their game.

[LFJ]

So you were never underneath them? Then why did you say you've wiggled and squirmed your way out from under them?

[Ali. R]

So you were never underneath them? Then why did you say you've wiggled and squirmed your way out from under them?

I was in the clinch about three times and body slammed him three times as well, and I'd just let him up every time, so I could just keep ripping meat of his face. His ear was hanging on his shoulder and his front teeth went through his top lip, and his nose was split open. It was very easy to beat him in the standup.

[Frost]

@Frost

Wing Chun is a self-defense skill. It's effectiveness has been proven by its practitioners. It doesn't need to be proven in sport fighting against the most elite MMAs. Refer back to the Bruce Lee thread if you like. I don't feel like reengaging in that conversation right now.

And I mean scientific in how its precise structures function. It's a very exact skill. Don't know how deeply you've studied it. Didn't you say you aren't a Wing Chun practitioner?

The only clips of it in action are a few black and white roof top fights which look like play slapping, I can post clips of boxers and wrestling in both open competition and street fights, yet it’s amazing for all the clips of wing chun doing sticky hands and forms no one can post a simple fighting clip (can be from the street doesn’t need to be a comp lots of fights on youtube) or can be hard sparring, because that does happen in the WSL lineage correct? In fact the only hard sparring wing chun clips we have seen here are from Cheungs lineage (derided by most as not wing chun) alans lineage (again derided as not good wing chun) and Leung Tings lineage (again derided) anyone see a pattern here?

And who mentioned elite MMAs simply go to a local event and off you go, if you add ground work what’s stopping your scientific methods from working with 4 oz gloves on??

Science is in the application of theory, yet we cant find any clips of this science working anywhere on a regular basis, which is a bit strange don’t you think?

Nope im not a wing chun practitioner but that doesn’t mean to say I don’t understand the art, my current sifu started off as a wing chun teacher back in the late 80’s, and has over the years gone over the forms, the pole, the knife, sticky hands and various principles if only to contrast them to what he teaches now

Regardless of my knowledge or lack of it, its hard to say something is more scientific than something else if its never done very well when facing those other arts on a consistent basis wouldn’t you agree?

[Frost]

I have, and he couldn’t take me down not one time; made his wife cry in the process, only reason why I'd walked away with his blood all over my hands and clothing.

Not saying that I’ll do everyone like that, but he wasn’t the only one.

really, with your track record post a clip or no one is going to believe you

[LFJ]

Frost, we have a thread on Wing Chun fight vids, and there are plenty online if you search.